Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #5, Feb 2]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, as she leaned against her desk, "we're changing the syllabus up a little, and jumping ahead to victimless crimes. It seemed like a better fit here. We'll get to civil liberties later on in the term."

With that, she scooped up a piece of chalk and began writing, continuing her lecture as she did so. "John Stuart Mill wrote an essay called On Liberty. It was his philosophical principles on which he felt government should be formed. In it, he lays out something which has come to be known as the Harm Principle. And that is ..."

She stopped and underlined the sentence she had been writing, then stepped away so the students could read it.

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.

"Very simple," she said. "Laws should only protect against harm. Mill felt that the government should not have the right to restrict any behavior that wasn't directly tied to harm. Mill was therefore against something we know as the Offense Principle: the idea that certain rules should be made to protect citizens from themselves, or for the good of society as a whole. Detractors of the Offense Principle call these charges 'victimless crimes.'

"To give you a clearer example, let's talk about drug abuse. Some believe that any citizen should have the right to place any substance in his own body; he has consented, so it is no longer the government's concern in any way. Others say an addict is no longer able to freely consent, and that the government should intervene on his behalf. And some will argue that the cost is too large to society as a whole: that drug addicts are unlikely to be functioning members of society, and in some cases, are more likely to be violent when seeking a fix.

Alex lifted her shoulders and set the chalk down again. "I specified 'addiction' and 'abuse' because it's easier to see the harm. It would be difficult to say that recreational drug use is acceptable, but addiction is against the law. How does society determine addiction? There's no clear test. And today's recreational user could easily be tomorrow's addict. The line blurs."

"Should drug use be legal? What about prostitution, or gambling? Does the government have the right to enforce laws not predicated on direct harm?"

Comments

Sign In - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Like a hooker, a gambler, or a drug addict.

Re: Sign In - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

Jack Priest

During the Lecture - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Take notes. Pass notes. Try not to do any illegal drugs, in class.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

Jack wasn't sure he thought victimless crimes were crimes at all, but he came from an age where homosexuality was illegal. It was interesting to see the way the handling of such issues ahd progressed (or not) in the last century.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[therewaslife]

Bod hadn't really classified any crimes before as victimless but, after Professor Cabot's lecture, he easily started slotting different things into that category.

They were still crimes, he knew, still having punishments attached but now Bod could differentiate between punishments before, when they'd just been crimes, and now when they were something a little different.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[exspeedydotcom]

Roy was just going to...slide down in his seat and try not to be noticed. Yes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt... hadn't really thought about the issue before, beyond a knee-jerk "drugs are bad". He tried to figure out exactly WHAT he thought, while taking notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

This kind of stuff was relevant to Chuck's interests so, what do you know, he was actually paying attention. But not taking notes. He had a bitch for that sort of thing.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Dinah was not looking at Roy. But she was thinking of him, and of Tony, and various other people she'd run into in New Gotham, and looking very very thoughtful.

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[heromaniac]

Momoko was taking notes and wondering what she thought of crime having no victims. She understood the examples that were given, but she had doubts that they were really victimless.

Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

How does the idea of a free society work against the offense principle? Do you believe the government has the right to legislate on issues they deem to be for the greater good, or to protect citizens from themselves? Do members of a free society have the right to do anything they want? Go naked in public? Drive far over the speed limit, so long as they don't actually cause an accident? Abuse drugs?

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[therewaslife]

"Wouldn't a completely free society eventually descend into anarchy?" asked Bod. It sounded like it would and if he thought about, he couldn't see any way around it. "Everyone does what they want because they can with no guidelines or restrictions for them to abide by. It might be their right but it would cause more harm than good in the end."

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[noearsyet.livejournal.com]

George made a face. "Why should th'government care what people do t'themselves?"

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"Well, sometimes people get hurt indirectly?" Kurt mused out loud. "...And... some things are morally wrong, but not actually illegal, and maybe they should be? And how do you define 'harm', anyway? If it's only someone's feelings that get hurt, does that count?"

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Speaking only for my world, again... The first two things, going naked in public, or driving far over the speed limit, have the potential to do harm to other people," Dinah said slowly. "Speeding can cause accidents, and public nakedness, depending on the naked person and the person seeing them, can be traumatic." She smiled a very small smile. "If we were all nudists, no big deal, but mostly in New Jersey we're not, so. Law." She was quiet. "I'm not sure making all drug use illegal is the way to keep people from harm, though."

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[not-jaded-yet.livejournal.com]

"There's no such thing as a truly free society," Jennifer said. "Civilization accepts limits because there really is a greater good."

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[heromaniac]

Momoko tapped her pen against her nose as she puzzled over this one. She tried to imagine the reaction the Mayor back home would have if someone wanted to make it legal to walk around Tokyo City naked and had trouble not laughing.

"If a society has a government, that government is responsible for the whole of the people and not just the few who want to do something. Even if it's not dangerous or bad, at the beginning, the government is there to make sure that things aren't bad at the end, too."

Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Prostitution is legal in many societies, and illegal in others. Supporters say that legalizing prostitution will allow for better treatment of sex workers -- that they can unionize, be subjected to rigorous testing, and press charges against abusive clients. Detractors say that prostitution exploits women, creates health risks, and damages structured families. Detractors also argue that 'consent' becomes murky when the prostitute in question is homeless, or a drug addict, or forced to prostitute by an abusive significant other. Should prostitution be legal?

Gambling is also considered a victimless crime, in that the person is only losing his or her own money to the casino. Governments think the casinos are predatory, and want to protect the citizenry. Should gambling be legal?

Drug use was covered above. Should drug use be legal?

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

"I don't think prostitution should be legal," Jack volunteered. "It's a lovely thought that if it was legal they'd just form unions and be healthier -- but I don't think very many people opt into it entirely out of their own free choice. Arresting someone might save them from a worse situation."

"I do think, though," he continued, "that if a person is an adult, keeps his or her own quarters, harms no one, and doesn't cause a public nuisance in any other way, the police might have better things to do than enforce that law."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[exspeedydotcom]

"The thing about drug use," Roy said slowly, because yeah, why not face his demons head on, "is it's not just one person sticking something in their body. It's a system with people getting hurt and used all along the system. And. Yeah, I would tend to agree with the assessment that an addict isn't really 'freely consenting.'" He shifted nervously and shoved his hands into his pockets. "Then there's the argument that one role of government is to help those who can't help themselves." He didn't know where he was going with this beyond, "I don't think it should be legal."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"What if you only make one side of it illegal?" Kurt asked. "Make it illegal just to SELL drugs, or to run a gambling parlor, or to... um... 'visit' a prostitute? That way, you're arresting the people who are actually causing the harm?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"I think all three should be legal," Chuck said. Well there was a surprise right there. "It's going to happen whether it's legal or not. The government might as well make a little money off of it. Just arrest the people who don't know how to do any of it responsibly."

Talk to the TAs - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

If they're here.

Re: Talk to the TAs - JST05

[glacial_queen]

Karla was here, taking notes as per usual. This class was always interesting.

Talk to Alex - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

She's here.

Re: Talk to Alex - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

Jack came up to Alex after class, hands stuffed in his pockets. "Miss Cabot?" he began. "Did I hear that you take on student interns in your legal practice?"

He didn't need a job, per se, but ... he was interested in this field, and he needed something to do on the long weekends when he couldn't be with Sebastien.

[OOC: Let me know if this is not OK to handwave him knowing, and I shall edit!]

OOC - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Actually, the switch is because I'm headachey and couldn't focus well enough for the detailed nuances of law enforcement vs. civil liberties. Pings are going to be slow as hell for a bit, but I will ping back, promise.

In honor of Groundhog's Day, I'd like to add that I grew up ten miles from that fucking rodent, and therefore can share these Actual True Facts about Groundhog's Day:

- The town name, Punxsutawney, means "home of the sand-flies"
- I know this because they painted a mural with it under a bridge
- idk why they thought this was something to be proud of, but this IS a town that celebrates a weather-telling rodent
- Locals call it "Punxsy" because Punxsutawney is a long-assed name
- Bill Murray's film "Groundhog's Day" wasn't filmed anywhere near Punxsy, and the "small town" they show off is still bigger than Punxsy anyway
- Bill Murray came to a Groundhog's Day ceremony to promote his movie
- At which point the groundhog bit him
- Punxsy's high school sports mascot is not, in fact, the groundhog: it's the Chuck, as in, the woodchuck
- They were our high school rivals -- the Beavers vs. the Chucks -- feel the terror of small rodents

Re: OOC - JST05

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

FYI, Joan won't be in class today since she's with Raven still.