Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #5, Feb 2]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, as she leaned against her desk, "we're changing the syllabus up a little, and jumping ahead to victimless crimes. It seemed like a better fit here. We'll get to civil liberties later on in the term."

With that, she scooped up a piece of chalk and began writing, continuing her lecture as she did so. "John Stuart Mill wrote an essay called On Liberty. It was his philosophical principles on which he felt government should be formed. In it, he lays out something which has come to be known as the Harm Principle. And that is ..."

She stopped and underlined the sentence she had been writing, then stepped away so the students could read it.

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.

"Very simple," she said. "Laws should only protect against harm. Mill felt that the government should not have the right to restrict any behavior that wasn't directly tied to harm. Mill was therefore against something we know as the Offense Principle: the idea that certain rules should be made to protect citizens from themselves, or for the good of society as a whole. Detractors of the Offense Principle call these charges 'victimless crimes.'

"To give you a clearer example, let's talk about drug abuse. Some believe that any citizen should have the right to place any substance in his own body; he has consented, so it is no longer the government's concern in any way. Others say an addict is no longer able to freely consent, and that the government should intervene on his behalf. And some will argue that the cost is too large to society as a whole: that drug addicts are unlikely to be functioning members of society, and in some cases, are more likely to be violent when seeking a fix.

Alex lifted her shoulders and set the chalk down again. "I specified 'addiction' and 'abuse' because it's easier to see the harm. It would be difficult to say that recreational drug use is acceptable, but addiction is against the law. How does society determine addiction? There's no clear test. And today's recreational user could easily be tomorrow's addict. The line blurs."

"Should drug use be legal? What about prostitution, or gambling? Does the government have the right to enforce laws not predicated on direct harm?"

Comments

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"I would argue the exact opposite," Karla said, a bit shyly, since the only reason she had an opinion of these things were from her experiences at home. "While it's true that very few people want to be who--umm, prostitutes, it doesn't necessarily mean they're unwilling. In some places, it's considered a way up and out of complete poverty. And if they're selling themselves to keep their children fed and a roof over their heads, how will they protect their kids while in jail? With strict regulations and enforcement, I think it would be easier to catch those who are in the business unwillingly, rather than keeping it all to the shadows."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

Jack looked at her, a bit swayed by the logic.

"It's certainly better than having their children stuffed into workhouses or worse," he mused. "Wouldn't it lead to more people making a living that way, though?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"I...kind of don't see the problem with that?" Karla offered. "I mean, not everyone can be a prostitute, but I don't really have a moral problem with people making money on their backs instead of with their hands."

Uhh...Karla? You know what; never mind.

"It's better than a workhouse, or begging, or thieving, or indulging in crimes that lead to victims in order to eat. And if it's regulated, it means it can be taxed, leading whores to being considered productive members of society, like any other professional."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

Jack didn't actually have an answer besides a Victorian sense of but it's just wrong that was, frankly, not entirely justifiable in a boy with his background.

"Suppose someone goes into prostitution because she's young and on her own and has no other skills," he said instead, thinking of Tony. "If it's legal, she might get licensed and stay in the field indefinitely. If it's not, the odds are better that she'll give it up fairly soon. Though if you have no problem with it as a means of employment, that doesn't matter, does it?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[noearsyet.livejournal.com]

"An' if it's not legal or watched over then th' young lass might end up dead in a gutter by those that think tis evil or 'immoral,'" George pointed out as he broke into the conversation. "Can't imagine tha'd be better."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

Karla glanced over and gave George a happy smile. "Welcome back," she murmured.

Louder, for the class to hear, she added, "I would think it would depend how young, too," Karla said. "Back home, there are laws about how old someone can be to work in a Red Moon House and very strict sanctions about breaking them. Also, if they're in a legal profession, won't it be more likely that the person would feel more comfortable reaching out to get those other skills? She'll have nothing to hide, rather than keeping below official notice to keep from getting arrested. To say nothing of the government's right to demand a certain percentage of the profit from such ventures go towards services and education. This way, they'll know for certain that no one is stuck in that position because they have nothing else to fall back on."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"There's strict laws about child prostitution here, too-- but wouldn't making it legal make it easier for someone sixteen or seventeen to pass as eighteen, and stay in the profession? Only they'd still be at risk from whoever found out they weren't of legal age? Maybe blackmail, maybe other pressure." Dinah was thinking of Tony too, as it happened. "How strictly can it be enforced, I guess, is my question. If they can't check every single practicing sex worker in the city, it's not going to make enough of a difference."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"I thought there were strict laws about all children working," Karla said. "How do you stop children who were too young from working at any job?" She honestly didn't know how that all worked. "If they are a sex-worker but not at a licensed place, then the police have reasonable cause to look into them."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Well, if you are, say, a fifteen-year-old who doesn't want to go home," Dinah said, then thought in Karla's direction, Like I was, "You just have to find a job where they only pay in cash. Food industry, wait tables, knock-off clothing factories, day jobs, babysitting, stuff like that-- it gets paid in cash, the employer doesn't have to report for taxes, everyone 'wins'." She grimaced. "Other jobs, the employer files paperwork that shows you've given them documents to prove you're a U.S. citizen who's at least sixteen, and then you can legally work. Ethical people won't hire kids, and they don't need the headaches. Non-ethical, well. It's just a matter of not getting caught." She frowned. "Which would be part of the problem with this idea, but maybe, yeah, if all sex work was restricted to one part of the city, and no one under eighteen was allowed their during certain hours..." Growling in frustration she said, "Gah. No, that would be too time-intensive too. Although, I don't know. It's legal in England and the Netherlands, maybe they've figured out a way to keep child prostitution for occurring there."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"I still think that it'll be less likely to get a child working as a prostitute in an industry that's regulated rather than one that isn't," Karla said. "There will always be some who slip through the cracks, unfortunately, but if there isn't any regulations at all, then the cracks are wider and deeper, too."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Maybe," Dinah admitted. "I don't have a problem with the idea of legalizing it for adults. Oh. Hey, maybe they could raise the age to twenty-one-- not just eighteen. Much harder to pass as a legal adult that way."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

Karla shrugged. The intricacies of Terran law were beyond her, and the arbitrary ages they chose for things seemed just that--arbitrary.

"I just think that any industry that is under the regulation of the government--especially one like this that's so rife with possible ways to be abused--is much more likely to be safe and secure when it's under that regulation instead of hiding from it. If nothing else, aren't the customers more likely to speak out if they think something is wrong and don't have to fear prosecution for breaking the law?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"The customers speak out? You mean, calling an inspector and saying, 'hey, I think they have underage workers at that parlor?'" Dinah asked, bemused.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

Karla nodded. "Why not? Wouldn't you report something like that if you saw it?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I wouldn't be there in the first place," Dinah pointed out. "And ... I guess that's the point, the climate we have here, the kind of person who would care, wouldn't be visiting a prostitute. Which sounds way judgmental but ... honestly, it's skeezy."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

Karla shook her head. "I don't really understand the moral issue with prostitution. And, even so, I don't think that's true. There's a huge difference between visiting a whore and being okay with underage exploitation," she contradicted gently. "There are plenty of reasons people choose to visit whores and not all of them are awful."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Maybe not," Dinah admitted. "Maybe I'm just going by the types I've seen on the streets, in a city where it is illegal." And where some would prefer under-age sex. "I don't get it. But. I don't think prostitutes should be penalized, when their patrons barely ever are. So maybe making it legal is the answer."

Maybe Tony would have been safer; but maybe he never would've gotten out. Who knew.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"And I'm looking at it from a place where it is legal," Karla said, nodding. "There will always be people out there who are horrible and sketchy and wrong." She gave Dinah a significant look, mouthing uncles. "They'll find a way to abuse any system. But, legalized, at least their victims will have some alternatives beyond just taking it."