http://glasses-justice.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] glasses-justice.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] fandomhigh2010-02-02 03:02 pm
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Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #5, Feb 2]

"This week," Alex said, as she leaned against her desk, "we're changing the syllabus up a little, and jumping ahead to victimless crimes. It seemed like a better fit here. We'll get to civil liberties later on in the term."

With that, she scooped up a piece of chalk and began writing, continuing her lecture as she did so. "John Stuart Mill wrote an essay called On Liberty. It was his philosophical principles on which he felt government should be formed. In it, he lays out something which has come to be known as the Harm Principle. And that is ..."

She stopped and underlined the sentence she had been writing, then stepped away so the students could read it.

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.


"Very simple," she said. "Laws should only protect against harm. Mill felt that the government should not have the right to restrict any behavior that wasn't directly tied to harm. Mill was therefore against something we know as the Offense Principle: the idea that certain rules should be made to protect citizens from themselves, or for the good of society as a whole. Detractors of the Offense Principle call these charges 'victimless crimes.'

"To give you a clearer example, let's talk about drug abuse. Some believe that any citizen should have the right to place any substance in his own body; he has consented, so it is no longer the government's concern in any way. Others say an addict is no longer able to freely consent, and that the government should intervene on his behalf. And some will argue that the cost is too large to society as a whole: that drug addicts are unlikely to be functioning members of society, and in some cases, are more likely to be violent when seeking a fix.

Alex lifted her shoulders and set the chalk down again. "I specified 'addiction' and 'abuse' because it's easier to see the harm. It would be difficult to say that recreational drug use is acceptable, but addiction is against the law. How does society determine addiction? There's no clear test. And today's recreational user could easily be tomorrow's addict. The line blurs."

"Should drug use be legal? What about prostitution, or gambling? Does the government have the right to enforce laws not predicated on direct harm?"
bitten_notshy: ([♥] i have nice arms)

Re: Sign In - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack Priest
bitten_notshy: ([neu] intense + golden)

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack wasn't sure he thought victimless crimes were crimes at all, but he came from an age where homosexuality was illegal. It was interesting to see the way the handling of such issues ahd progressed (or not) in the last century.
therewaslife: (→ | kinda thuggy)

Re: Sign In - JST05

[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-02-02 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Nobody Owens
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Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
"I don't think prostitution should be legal," Jack volunteered. "It's a lovely thought that if it was legal they'd just form unions and be healthier -- but I don't think very many people opt into it entirely out of their own free choice. Arresting someone might save them from a worse situation."

"I do think, though," he continued, "that if a person is an adult, keeps his or her own quarters, harms no one, and doesn't cause a public nuisance in any other way, the police might have better things to do than enforce that law."
therewaslife: (→ | school bound)

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-02-02 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Bod hadn't really classified any crimes before as victimless but, after Professor Cabot's lecture, he easily started slotting different things into that category.

They were still crimes, he knew, still having punishments attached but now Bod could differentiate between punishments before, when they'd just been crimes, and now when they were something a little different.
bitten_notshy: (Default)

Re: Talk to Alex - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack came up to Alex after class, hands stuffed in his pockets. "Miss Cabot?" he began. "Did I hear that you take on student interns in your legal practice?"

He didn't need a job, per se, but ... he was interested in this field, and he needed something to do on the long weekends when he couldn't be with Sebastien.

[OOC: Let me know if this is not OK to handwave him knowing, and I shall edit!]
glacial_queen: (Make-out Session 3)

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[personal profile] glacial_queen 2010-02-02 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Karla
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Re: Talk to the TAs - JST05

[personal profile] glacial_queen 2010-02-02 08:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Karla was here, taking notes as per usual. This class was always interesting.
therewaslife: (↓ | darkness invades)

Re: Discussion - Offense Principle - JST05

[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-02-02 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
"Wouldn't a completely free society eventually descend into anarchy?" asked Bod. It sounded like it would and if he thought about, he couldn't see any way around it. "Everyone does what they want because they can with no guidelines or restrictions for them to abide by. It might be their right but it would cause more harm than good in the end."
glacial_queen: (Conversation 5)

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[personal profile] glacial_queen 2010-02-02 08:38 pm (UTC)(link)
"I would argue the exact opposite," Karla said, a bit shyly, since the only reason she had an opinion of these things were from her experiences at home. "While it's true that very few people want to be who--umm, prostitutes, it doesn't necessarily mean they're unwilling. In some places, it's considered a way up and out of complete poverty. And if they're selling themselves to keep their children fed and a roof over their heads, how will they protect their kids while in jail? With strict regulations and enforcement, I think it would be easier to catch those who are in the business unwillingly, rather than keeping it all to the shadows."
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Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack looked at her, a bit swayed by the logic.

"It's certainly better than having their children stuffed into workhouses or worse," he mused. "Wouldn't it lead to more people making a living that way, though?"
glacial_queen: (Conversation 3)

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[personal profile] glacial_queen 2010-02-02 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
"I...kind of don't see the problem with that?" Karla offered. "I mean, not everyone can be a prostitute, but I don't really have a moral problem with people making money on their backs instead of with their hands."

Uhh...Karla? You know what; never mind.

"It's better than a workhouse, or begging, or thieving, or indulging in crimes that lead to victims in order to eat. And if it's regulated, it means it can be taxed, leading whores to being considered productive members of society, like any other professional."

Re: OOC - JST05

[identity profile] joan-notjane.livejournal.com 2010-02-02 08:50 pm (UTC)(link)
FYI, Joan won't be in class today since she's with Raven still.

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[identity profile] noearsyet.livejournal.com 2010-02-02 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
George Cooper
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Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-02-02 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack didn't actually have an answer besides a Victorian sense of but it's just wrong that was, frankly, not entirely justifiable in a boy with his background.

"Suppose someone goes into prostitution because she's young and on her own and has no other skills," he said instead, thinking of Tony. "If it's legal, she might get licensed and stay in the field indefinitely. If it's not, the odds are better that she'll give it up fairly soon. Though if you have no problem with it as a means of employment, that doesn't matter, does it?"
Edited 2010-02-02 20:58 (UTC)
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[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-02-02 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Roy Harper
exspeedydotcom: ([comic] cheer up emo kid)

Re: During the Lecture - JST05

[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-02-02 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Roy was just going to...slide down in his seat and try not to be noticed. Yes.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[identity profile] noearsyet.livejournal.com 2010-02-02 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
"An' if it's not legal or watched over then th' young lass might end up dead in a gutter by those that think tis evil or 'immoral,'" George pointed out as he broke into the conversation. "Can't imagine tha'd be better."

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