Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #5, Feb 2]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, as she leaned against her desk, "we're changing the syllabus up a little, and jumping ahead to victimless crimes. It seemed like a better fit here. We'll get to civil liberties later on in the term."

With that, she scooped up a piece of chalk and began writing, continuing her lecture as she did so. "John Stuart Mill wrote an essay called On Liberty. It was his philosophical principles on which he felt government should be formed. In it, he lays out something which has come to be known as the Harm Principle. And that is ..."

She stopped and underlined the sentence she had been writing, then stepped away so the students could read it.

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.

"Very simple," she said. "Laws should only protect against harm. Mill felt that the government should not have the right to restrict any behavior that wasn't directly tied to harm. Mill was therefore against something we know as the Offense Principle: the idea that certain rules should be made to protect citizens from themselves, or for the good of society as a whole. Detractors of the Offense Principle call these charges 'victimless crimes.'

"To give you a clearer example, let's talk about drug abuse. Some believe that any citizen should have the right to place any substance in his own body; he has consented, so it is no longer the government's concern in any way. Others say an addict is no longer able to freely consent, and that the government should intervene on his behalf. And some will argue that the cost is too large to society as a whole: that drug addicts are unlikely to be functioning members of society, and in some cases, are more likely to be violent when seeking a fix.

Alex lifted her shoulders and set the chalk down again. "I specified 'addiction' and 'abuse' because it's easier to see the harm. It would be difficult to say that recreational drug use is acceptable, but addiction is against the law. How does society determine addiction? There's no clear test. And today's recreational user could easily be tomorrow's addict. The line blurs."

"Should drug use be legal? What about prostitution, or gambling? Does the government have the right to enforce laws not predicated on direct harm?"

Comments

Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Prostitution is legal in many societies, and illegal in others. Supporters say that legalizing prostitution will allow for better treatment of sex workers -- that they can unionize, be subjected to rigorous testing, and press charges against abusive clients. Detractors say that prostitution exploits women, creates health risks, and damages structured families. Detractors also argue that 'consent' becomes murky when the prostitute in question is homeless, or a drug addict, or forced to prostitute by an abusive significant other. Should prostitution be legal?

Gambling is also considered a victimless crime, in that the person is only losing his or her own money to the casino. Governments think the casinos are predatory, and want to protect the citizenry. Should gambling be legal?

Drug use was covered above. Should drug use be legal?

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bitten_notshy]

"I don't think prostitution should be legal," Jack volunteered. "It's a lovely thought that if it was legal they'd just form unions and be healthier -- but I don't think very many people opt into it entirely out of their own free choice. Arresting someone might save them from a worse situation."

"I do think, though," he continued, "that if a person is an adult, keeps his or her own quarters, harms no one, and doesn't cause a public nuisance in any other way, the police might have better things to do than enforce that law."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glacial_queen]

"I would argue the exact opposite," Karla said, a bit shyly, since the only reason she had an opinion of these things were from her experiences at home. "While it's true that very few people want to be who--umm, prostitutes, it doesn't necessarily mean they're unwilling. In some places, it's considered a way up and out of complete poverty. And if they're selling themselves to keep their children fed and a roof over their heads, how will they protect their kids while in jail? With strict regulations and enforcement, I think it would be easier to catch those who are in the business unwillingly, rather than keeping it all to the shadows."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Would you be in favor of decriminalization?" Alex asked. "It could be legal, but heavily enforced, so that people who aren't licensed would be subject to fines or otherwise forced to stop, but people who are following the rules would be left alone."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[exspeedydotcom]

"The thing about drug use," Roy said slowly, because yeah, why not face his demons head on, "is it's not just one person sticking something in their body. It's a system with people getting hurt and used all along the system. And. Yeah, I would tend to agree with the assessment that an addict isn't really 'freely consenting.'" He shifted nervously and shoved his hands into his pockets. "Then there's the argument that one role of government is to help those who can't help themselves." He didn't know where he was going with this beyond, "I don't think it should be legal."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

His body language suggested this was personal, so Alex was going to take a gentler approach than her usual devil's-advocate.

"I can see that," she said carefully. "I would imagine that many people unfamiliar with the realities of drug addiction wouldn't necessarily realize some of the far-reaching implications. The way it can hurt people around them, or the way the system feeds itself into something more dangerous."

Like, say, a drug cartel ordering a hit on an ADA who won't play ball.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"What if you only make one side of it illegal?" Kurt asked. "Make it illegal just to SELL drugs, or to run a gambling parlor, or to... um... 'visit' a prostitute? That way, you're arresting the people who are actually causing the harm?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Do you think that's fair?" Alex asked. "Penalizing one half of a consenting arrangement? And what if the drug user also sells to his friends, to fund his own addiction?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[exspeedydotcom]

"But then the hoo--prostitutes and the drug users are still accessories to a crime," Roy argued.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"I think all three should be legal," Chuck said. Well there was a surprise right there. "It's going to happen whether it's legal or not. The government might as well make a little money off of it. Just arrest the people who don't know how to do any of it responsibly."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Dinah gave him a sardonic look. "Okay, define responsibly, Chuck. You're the expert."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Your classmate has a point," Alex said, raising an eyebrow. "Exactly how do you determine and enforce responsibility, legally?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[likes_scoundrels]

Leia had fairly strong opinions about drugs, since she'd seen their effects at her last school. "Drugs are a tool of self-destruction," she said. "If someone wants to end their own life, that's one thing, but when they offer drugs to others who don't realize what they're getting into or engage in any behavior that risks harm to others, that's another entirely. It's dangerous and should be illegal."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[momslilassassin]

"What if they smuggle them for a Hutt?" asked Ben, the little shit.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"It sounds like you're agreeing with Kurt," Alex said. "That selling drugs should be illegal, but using them shouldn't be. Or should be addressed with treatment."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

"Alcohol is legal here, isn't it?" Aravis pointed out. "If we endorse one addiction, why should we deny another?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[momslilassassin]

"So is caffeine," Ben added, nodding. "How is one substance chosen over another for regulation?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"That's a fair question," Alex said. "Alcohol was illegal, at one point in this country's history, but that only created a black market. It didn't stop people from drinking -- it just made organized crime members richer. It's a strange balance, what we legalize and what we don't. Where would you draw the line?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[shyest-eyes.livejournal.com]

"If you a-are of legal age, wh-whatever that might be in our country, and considered to be sound of mind," Hinata said, trying not to mumble. "Then I think it is up to you what you do if it harms no one but yourself. I agree that it would happen anyway and if it were legal there would be restrictions that could be put in place and laws to protect b-both sides of the equation."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"'Sound mind' can be complicated, when we discuss addiction," Alex noted. "Some people say at the point where someone is addicted, it's no longer a free choice."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"The problem with trying to make vices illegal is that then you end up encouraging things like organized crime. That's how the mobs got started in this country, during Prohibition. Now, well, it's drugs, but also gambling, weapons and prostitution. And when you have organized crime, you have more violence because they're better at defying the law, and more people at risk beyond those who want to break the law either as providers or consumers of those crimes." Dinah frowned. "But legalizing those industries wouldn't necessarily take away that element. There'd still be kids who are too young to be sex workers. Soooo.... I don't know. Maybe some kind of amnesty? Shouldn't someone who needs help get it, without being afraid they're going to be thrown in jail?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Amnesty's an intriguing idea," Alex said, nodding quickly. "It would certainly help in professions like mine, where prostitutes are afraid to report cases of abuse or rape by their clients. How would it be enforced? I'm assuming if someone wants to turn him or herself in, they're free to do so. What if someone is arrested, then wants amnesty to get help?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[not-jaded-yet.livejournal.com]

"It's hard to measure what really only hurts a person and no one else," Jennifer said. "And a lot of things that are historically crimes, it's hard to shake that stigma from it to suddenly make it legal without people crying Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not a simple yes or no question. It requires more finesse... and a lot more research, at least when I'm from."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"It does," Alex said, "and a lot more than we can cover in a single class. But I wanted to raise the issue. Should we care about the public crying Sodom and Gomorrah? If people aren't hurting any one, why should a larger group's morality outweigh their personal freedoms?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[heromaniac]

Momoko was still not used to questioning laws. They just were, and you followed them.

Well, except that one time the Mayor had been possessed by the Shogun and made it illegal to fight monsters. Which they fixed, finally, and hey, maybe it was the same thing as this?

"I guess it all comes down to motive," she said, finally. "What is the good stuff that can happen for the people by changing the law? Since we're not talking about making a law in the first place, I mean. Why should we change it?"