Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #5, Feb 2]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, as she leaned against her desk, "we're changing the syllabus up a little, and jumping ahead to victimless crimes. It seemed like a better fit here. We'll get to civil liberties later on in the term."

With that, she scooped up a piece of chalk and began writing, continuing her lecture as she did so. "John Stuart Mill wrote an essay called On Liberty. It was his philosophical principles on which he felt government should be formed. In it, he lays out something which has come to be known as the Harm Principle. And that is ..."

She stopped and underlined the sentence she had been writing, then stepped away so the students could read it.

That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.

"Very simple," she said. "Laws should only protect against harm. Mill felt that the government should not have the right to restrict any behavior that wasn't directly tied to harm. Mill was therefore against something we know as the Offense Principle: the idea that certain rules should be made to protect citizens from themselves, or for the good of society as a whole. Detractors of the Offense Principle call these charges 'victimless crimes.'

"To give you a clearer example, let's talk about drug abuse. Some believe that any citizen should have the right to place any substance in his own body; he has consented, so it is no longer the government's concern in any way. Others say an addict is no longer able to freely consent, and that the government should intervene on his behalf. And some will argue that the cost is too large to society as a whole: that drug addicts are unlikely to be functioning members of society, and in some cases, are more likely to be violent when seeking a fix.

Alex lifted her shoulders and set the chalk down again. "I specified 'addiction' and 'abuse' because it's easier to see the harm. It would be difficult to say that recreational drug use is acceptable, but addiction is against the law. How does society determine addiction? There's no clear test. And today's recreational user could easily be tomorrow's addict. The line blurs."

"Should drug use be legal? What about prostitution, or gambling? Does the government have the right to enforce laws not predicated on direct harm?"

Comments

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"You're right about the last part," he said. "I don't need money. I just used to do that sort of stuff for fun."

Well, he still did that sort of stuff. Just not as much as he used to.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Okay, maybe. But you wouldn't kill anyone for fun, or hurt one of your friends--" Except oh wait, brownies. "Okay. There's a fuzzy line there." Dinah shook her head. "But yeah, saying people should do all this responsibly-- c'mon. People don't."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"I do." Okay, Sam would disagree, but Chuck felt he did it responsibly.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"So what makes your drug use, prostitution patronage, and gambling responsible?" Dinah asked, turning red, but genuinely curious as to the answer.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck thought about it for a moment. "Well I usually just buy prostitutes for other people, not myself. It's like charity for people who can't get laid."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"...." Dinah was just boggling here at that for a moment. "Wow. I." Pause. "Now I'm trying to imagine the name of that charity. And just... gah."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck grinned. "I think it's best it's one of those things that doesn't have an official name. I don't think those guys want to be known publicly anyway. It's kind of embarrassing for them."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Uh-hunh." Dinah paused, and shook her head. "Uh, anyway. So, you'd pay for it for someone else, but wouldn't do it yourself, because you don't have to. That's generous. Not 'responsible', maybe, but generous."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"Thank you," he said. "I actually think everybody can get laid on their own if they're confident enough. It's just some people need a little practice before they get that confidence."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"So it's like therapy?" Dinah asked, unwillingly intrigued. "Or sex lessons?" Ack. Ahem.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"A bit of both, I think," Chuck said. "I wouldn't know for sure since I've never been in that position. I started when I was 11 and pretty much always rocked at it."

Everybody had a talent. Chuck figured that was his.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Dinah stared. "Eleven? Holy crap. Is that even possible for a guy?"

Seriously!

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck laughed a little. "It's definitely possible, trust me. We, um, mature faster on the Upper East Side."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"What with, radiation?" Dinah muttered, then shook her head, still a little pink. "So. Yeah. Maybe, something like that, or like that courtesan on Lightening Bug... someone with training and all. I guess that could kinda count as responsible." She paused. "I guess there should be guys who do that too, for girls, but wow does that entire idea make me want to flinch."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"Why?" Chuck asked. "It's just sex."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Dinah paused, not even knowing where to start. "To sum up: there's too much crap people expect when you're a girl to feel like that's an okay thing to do." Yeah. That covered it.

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck frowned a little. "Why do you care about what other people think or expect?"

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Because she'd spent ten years with people whose expectations made her life very, very difficult, mostly. But she wasn't about to say that. "Maybe because girls are more vulnerable, when our reputations are compromised. It makes life rougher than it has to be. If people think you deserve to be treated like crap." Dinah shook her head. "I couldn't go to a prostitute, anyway. It'd feel... weird. Knowing some guy was only there because I paid him."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

"You wouldn't need to go to one," Chuck said. Dinah was attractive enough to get laid on her own. "But I will say a bad reputation is not the end of the world."

He would know, after all.

"You should never care too much about what other people think. When it comes down to it, it's your own opinion that matters the most."

Re: Discussion - Gambling, Prostitution, and Drug Use - JST05

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Which was great advice-- a little bizarre, coming from Chuck, but hey. You couldn't say he was a hypocrite about this. Then again, he sometimes went too far, so... yeah.

"Point. There's other reasons too, but they're more... individual." And waaaay not something to get into in a class. "But yeah. That's probably how the law got passed in the first place, people caring about that too much."