Ethics, Tuesday

[saddeserthermit]

There was no particular set-up this week; just your usual view of two grown men in robes the likes of which certain types of hippie would fight for. "A classic topic within the realm of ethics is the notion of the ends justifying the means," Obi-Wan said. "There are schools of thought that consider the means true as long as the end is just-- intention being more important than the actual consequence."

Anakin, who'd spent a lot of time with Atton recently, pursed his lips at that. "And then there are those who think that sounds like 'just think happy thoughts at the problem; instead of, you know, fix it."

Hard to believe this guy fell to the Dark Side, huh? Mmm, impulsiveness.

Was that a sigh? ... Yes, that was a sigh. Anakin.

"Or, at the other extreme, it might end in extreme and harmful actions taken for some hypothetical future gain," Obi-Wan said. "There is a middle road, of course: one can commit to some less than savory options for a common goal..."

"...and then deny ever having done so to maintain the moral high ground," Anakin finished, nodding.

...Obi-Wan turned to him and shot him a look. "No."

"So explain it to the class, Master 'I Faked My Own Death'," Anakin retorted.

"Are you still sour about that?" Anakin, really. Your ability to hold grudges... "Yes, I faked my own death. So I could disguise myself as a criminal and stop a Separatist plot that, we felt at the time, could cause immeasurable harm." He took a deep breath. "Anakin here is still upset because I didn't tell him, which is hardly the level of consequence I was attempting to describe."

Anakin rolled his eyes. "Every consequence doesn't have to have galactic ramifications," he said. "Hurting people's feelings is still a consequence you need to take into account." Another sour look Obi-Wan's direction. "Even if you didn't mean to."

"Your reaction is what sold my apparent death to the galaxy in the first place," Obi-Wan said. He shook his head before he got mired in this entirely. "...But, yes, let's discuss. Does intent ever excuse one's actions? Is there an end that justifies any means? If the answer to the first question is 'yes', and to the second is 'no', then how far do you believe someone may go and still remain in the bounds of the acceptable?"

Comments

Sign In!

[saddeserthermit]

With the ends, or the means.

Re: Sign In!

[gavegoodface]

Garik Loran

Re: Sign In!

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

Elsa of Arendelle

Listen to the Lecture

[saddeserthermit]

Will there ever be an ethics class without sniping again?

Re: Listen to the Lecture

[gavegoodface]

Face hoped not, it'd be kind of boring after all this.

Also despite being a member of the 'Faked Your Own Death' club, he was kind of on Anakin's side here.

Discussion

[saddeserthermit]

Does intent ever excuse one's actions? Is there an end that justifies any means? If the answer to the first question is 'yes', and to the second is 'no', then how far do you believe someone may go and still remain in the bounds of the acceptable? And if your answers are different, why do you think that way?

Re: Discussion

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

"I don't know if I would go so far as to say that intent excuses a person's actions," Elsa ventured. "If you're making a choice, a deliberate choice, and you've taken the time to consider the consequences before doing so, then you're still doing so knowing that there might be some damage along the way. Saying the end result excuses your actions almost sounds as though you're washing your hands of responsibility for the damage caused by the choices you made, just because something bigger turned out alright in the end."

She shook her head.

"I don't like that. Even if the end justifies the means, you're responsible for those means, and the damage caused. Nobody should get to pretend that they didn't break things along the way for the sake of some bigger picture. It's your mess. Go back and face the consequences of making it once the larger problem is out of the way."

Re: Discussion

[sith_happened]

"What if you don't know about the damage that happened?" Anakin asked. "Say your rebel alliance, oh, blew up a huge, planet-destroying weapon of mass destruction. Clearly this was a good thing, but you've now fled because someone is really, really ticked to have lost their weapon. Meanwhile, the bits of destroyed superweapon fall onto a moon's surface and destroy the ecosystem, but you're not there to see it."

Re: Discussion

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"What if someone accepts those consequences and the ensuing mess?" Eleanor asked. "If someone could say, 'I fully accept that I've destroyed lives, tortured, murdered, and sowed destruction, but I still believe I'm right because of what I'm trying to achieve. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.'"

If she sounded bitter, it was because she was. Mother played that martyr role to the hilt.

Re: Discussion

[notacokeperson.livejournal.com]

"I don't think intent excuses peoples' actions once they're past, like, the age of six, maybe eight," Karina said. "After that, it can explain their actions and even re-contextualize them, but excusing them is... oh, I don't know, like going 'oh, sorry!' and laughing like that fixed everything when you made someone cry because you chose to stand them up to go out with someone else."

You know, to use less world-endingly terrible consequences here.

"Like, in that case, just suck it up and properly apologize and make amends, if they actually matter to you. If you don't, you're the jerk, and I definitely think that goes for bigger situations too. If you care about the consequences that happen because of your choices, then it's up to you to do something about them. I don't think saying the ends justified the means helps anything, except your own feelings, which aren't the important ones in the fallout because, for better or for worse, you're the one that made your bed and chose to lay in it. No one else got that option, or will get that option, until they make their own choices and have to deal with their own consequences."

Re: Discussion

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

Goodness, Karina. If Elsa was any more modern, she might have attempted to solicit a high-five from you for that response.

As it stood, she was going to turn an approving smile in your direction and give a nod, instead.

"Leaving other people to deal with the fallout of your own actions and acting as though it doesn't matter just because the end result suits you is so... selfish," she offered. "We're all responsible for the choices we make, and it's up to us to be aware of the smaller consequences of our actions and to accept that we were the cause of those consequences, regardless of our final goal."

Re: Discussion

[saddeserthermit]

"What if you don't believe you did anything worth apologizing for?" Obi-Wan asked. (He wasn't talking about his own little spat earlier; this was purely hypothetical.) "In a situation where someone might consider the 'ends justifies the means' explanation, that person may believe there was no other way to do it. Can you make honest amends if you are certain you would repeat your actions?"

Re: Discussion

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

"Well I used to think the ends justified the means," Barry replied. "At the time it was all for science and fuck anything that got in the way. Then I fucked up and my friend paid the price for it. She's fine now but after that? Yeah, intent isn't always a fucking excuse, especially if someone's life is on the line. As for how far I'll go? Shit. I don't know. I have friends now that keep me from being a complete fucking sociopath"

Re: Discussion

[saddeserthermit]

"When would you want them to stop you?" Obi-Wan asked.

Re: Discussion

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"You're not a sociopath," Eleanor said softly. "If you were, you wouldn't care if you friend paid a price for it. You'd write that off as the cost of doing business."

Re: Discussion

[not-called-icky.livejournal.com]

"There is never an end that justifies any mean," Ichabod said firmly. "And while intent certainly make actions understandable there are boundaries that cannot be crossed. Perhaps the most difficult question is whether we can truly understand where a certain course of action will eventually lead us. I believe that many inexcusable acts are committed by good-intentioned people who got carried away on what they saw as an inevitable path."

Re: Discussion

[bjornstjarna.livejournal.com]

"It depends on your meaning of 'acceptable', I suppose," Soren said, making a face. "There are actions I would find abhorrent coming from a human, and I may make some attempt to stop them, or act in retribution, but if a god were to do them..." Freya, "I may be angry, but there is not a lot I can do about it."

Re: Discussion

[not_a_moonie]

"I don't think intent's an excuse," Alana decided, though she'd had to think about it for several long moments. "I mean, you might get a cookie for not meaning to be a total jerk, but if you hurt somebody on your way to your goal you still have to make up for it later."

Re: Discussion

[wildandbrave]

If Cosette ever discussed the topic of today's class with her father, she'd be so confused about why it seemed to make him uncomfortable. Yes, looking at you, Monsieur Breaking-Into-People's-Homes-to-Leave-Them-Money.

Her contributions to class would be so much more interesting if she knew any of these things. Oh well.

"I think it depends," she said. "Someone might have the best of intentions but wrong someone else in the process of going about it. If that's the case, and this person doesn't feel any remorse about that at all, I might not be so inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. And then it also depends on what this person intended to do. If they knew their plans were likely to hurt someone else in the process, and didn't try to find another solution or simply didn't care to consider the possibility, for instance. I think that's entirely different than if it were a possible result that truly didn't occur to them."

Re: Discussion

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"I think people like to say 'the ends justify the means' as an excuse," Eleanor said, darkly. "If you can convince yourself that you're serving the greater good, it cloaks you in righteousness and grants you immunity no matter what you do. How do you know that what you think is the greater good, actually is? It's a way for egotistics to give themselves permission to do anything they'd like and still feel like unsung heroes. Or martyrs to the Cause."

Re: Discussion

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"Intent doesn't excuse jack," Joker answered. "Does it mitigate? Sometimes. But does it justify?" He shrugged. "At some point, you're making an actual decision that something is worth what you're doing for it. You've gotta own that and not run away from it. And hope other people agree with you."

Talk to the Teachers

[saddeserthermit]

It was only one faked death, Anakin, come on.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[saddeserthermit]

All right, so in retrospect, that episode hadn't fostered a great deal of trust... but still.

Obi-Wan was there, observing the class.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[sith_happened]

Anakin was there too, sulking brooding behind his coffee mug. As you do.

OOC

[saddeserthermit]

The Obi-Wan-as-Rako-Hardeen episodes are some of the best Clone Wars has to offer, if you even remotely like these two knuckleheads.

Even so, Obi-Wan, that was a bit of a dumbass move, honestly, have you met Anakin?