fandomhigh | Ethics, Tuesday

There was no particular set-up this week; just your usual view of two grown men in robes the likes of which certain types of hippie would fight for. "A classic topic within the realm of ethics is the notion of the ends justifying the means," Obi-Wan said. "There are schools of thought that consider the means true as long as the end is just-- intention being more important than the actual consequence."

Anakin, who'd spent a lot of time with Atton recently, pursed his lips at that. "And then there are those who think that sounds like 'just think happy thoughts at the problem; instead of, you know, fix it."

Hard to believe this guy fell to the Dark Side, huh? Mmm, impulsiveness.

Was that a sigh? ... Yes, that was a sigh. Anakin.

"Or, at the other extreme, it might end in extreme and harmful actions taken for some hypothetical future gain," Obi-Wan said. "There is a middle road, of course: one can commit to some less than savory options for a common goal..."

"...and then deny ever having done so to maintain the moral high ground," Anakin finished, nodding.

...Obi-Wan turned to him and shot him a look. "No."

"So explain it to the class, Master 'I Faked My Own Death'," Anakin retorted.

"Are you still sour about that?" Anakin, really. Your ability to hold grudges... "Yes, I faked my own death. So I could disguise myself as a criminal and stop a Separatist plot that, we felt at the time, could cause immeasurable harm." He took a deep breath. "Anakin here is still upset because I didn't tell him, which is hardly the level of consequence I was attempting to describe."

Anakin rolled his eyes. "Every consequence doesn't have to have galactic ramifications," he said. "Hurting people's feelings is still a consequence you need to take into account." Another sour look Obi-Wan's direction. "Even if you didn't mean to."

"Your reaction is what sold my apparent death to the galaxy in the first place," Obi-Wan said. He shook his head before he got mired in this entirely. "...But, yes, let's discuss. Does intent ever excuse one's actions? Is there an end that justifies any means? If the answer to the first question is 'yes', and to the second is 'no', then how far do you believe someone may go and still remain in the bounds of the acceptable?"

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"I don't know if I would go so far as to say that intent excuses a person's actions," Elsa ventured. "If you're making a choice, a deliberate choice, and you've taken the time to consider the consequences before doing so, then you're still doing so knowing that there might be some damage along the way. Saying the end result excuses your actions almost sounds as though you're washing your hands of responsibility for the damage caused by the choices you made, just because something bigger turned out alright in the end."

She shook her head.

"I don't like that. Even if the end justifies the means, you're responsible for those means, and the damage caused. Nobody should get to pretend that they didn't break things along the way for the sake of some bigger picture. It's your mess. Go back and face the consequences of making it once the larger problem is out of the way."

"What if you don't know about the damage that happened?" Anakin asked. "Say your rebel alliance, oh, blew up a huge, planet-destroying weapon of mass destruction. Clearly this was a good thing, but you've now fled because someone is really, really ticked to have lost their weapon. Meanwhile, the bits of destroyed superweapon fall onto a moon's surface and destroy the ecosystem, but you're not there to see it."

"Being ignorant doesn't make me any less responsible for what's happened," Elsa pointed out. "That mess is still my mess. I caused that mess. I broke that ecosystem."

Funnily enough, Elsa would one day down the road become aware of an ecosystem that she sort of accidentally broke and ran away from without stopping to realize what damage she was causing, too.

She'd probably remember this discussion.

"A lack of awareness doesn't change the fallout of my actions. I'm still just as guilty of causing it." There was a pause, and then she added, "Though it's still good that the weapon is gone, of course. And in that particular case, I might consider holding those responsible for building a world-destroying weapon responsible for cleanup later, because who does that!?"

Anakin pressed his lips together and suggested, "Evil people?"

That he used to be. Ahem. Oops?

"I'm sure they'd get right on ecological damage control," he said dryly. "Or maybe just blow the whole thing up."

"I'm not expecting they'd do it out of the goodness of their own hearts," Elsa replied, just as dryly. "Somebody who creates something like that clearly has the intention of using it. But rebels generally rebel because they want to see justice. If they can't get in safely to clean up the damage themselves, then assuming those evil people are eventually taken to task, picking up the pieces again ought to be part of their punishment. I feel like that sort of person would have a lot of damage to pick up after, in the wake of something like that."

A beat, and then she lifted her chin a little.

"Though I'm certain whatever their end goal was, to them, it justified the means, as well. Evil people aren't terribly big on accepting responsibility for their actions, either. That doesn't make them any less at fault for it."

If Elsa had any idea that Anakin had been using a real scenario as an example here, she'd probably go crawl under her desk for a while.

"They just don't tend to care about fault," Anakin said. "They care entirely about results."

"That's why it's so important to be aware of the consequences of your actions," Elsa replied, crossing her arms in front of herself. "Because sometimes the only thing separating good and evil is the willingness to ignore smaller damages in favor of pursuing that one big payout in the end. The final payoff might be worth it to the person making those choices, but does it really excuse everything you did to get there?"

Yes, now she was the one asking the ethical questions. If it helped any, at least this one was fairly rhetorical.

"But you can also get so mired up in the small consequences that you get paralyzed and don't act at all," Anakin said. "If you go outside, chanced are that you've squished a bug just by walking, which was bad luck for the bug, but you aren't exactly going to atone to his family, are you?"

"I might not," Elsa agreed. "But I might at least feel remorseful if I become aware of what I did. It really does depend on the situation, as well. I can't afford to not act," though arguably she could just stay inside and never step on any bugs, "but I still have a responsibility to find a way to get to my end result without causing unnecessary damage along the way."

"What if someone accepts those consequences and the ensuing mess?" Eleanor asked. "If someone could say, 'I fully accept that I've destroyed lives, tortured, murdered, and sowed destruction, but I still believe I'm right because of what I'm trying to achieve. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.'"

If she sounded bitter, it was because she was. Mother played that martyr role to the hilt.

"It doesn't make them any less guilty, does it?" Elsa was pretty certain she knew exactly who Eleanor was talking about here. "If a person does horrible things knowing that those things are horrible, all for something they perceive to be the better outcome..."

She frowned a little.

"In some cases, it's no less selfish in spite of the faith that comes with it. Just saying that the end justifies the means doesn't mean that it does."

Right. Elsa wasn't talking about insane cult leaders; she was talking about normal people. Eleanor needed to take a deep breath and stop being prickly.

"When you say they should face the consequences," Eleanor asked, frowning a bit, "what is it that you mean by that? Go to jail, be forced to atone, accept responsibility? There are acts one can't take back."

"There are," Elsa agreed, gently. "And not everything can be atoned for. It's... a very situational thing, finding a consequence for a crime. It's one of the reasons that laws are constantly changing, as well as the sentences that go with them, as society grows and learns. You can't take back the past, even if you want to. All of the hurt and and fear and suffering, that's been done, and there's no going back to right it as time continues forward. But the present and the future... Is there some way to fix any of it going forward? Is it still happening? Might it happen again...? There are a lot of factors to consider."

Especially when it came to Eleanor's mother.

Ethics, Tuesday

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