fandomhigh | Ethics, Tuesday

There was no particular set-up this week; just your usual view of two grown men in robes the likes of which certain types of hippie would fight for. "A classic topic within the realm of ethics is the notion of the ends justifying the means," Obi-Wan said. "There are schools of thought that consider the means true as long as the end is just-- intention being more important than the actual consequence."

Anakin, who'd spent a lot of time with Atton recently, pursed his lips at that. "And then there are those who think that sounds like 'just think happy thoughts at the problem; instead of, you know, fix it."

Hard to believe this guy fell to the Dark Side, huh? Mmm, impulsiveness.

Was that a sigh? ... Yes, that was a sigh. Anakin.

"Or, at the other extreme, it might end in extreme and harmful actions taken for some hypothetical future gain," Obi-Wan said. "There is a middle road, of course: one can commit to some less than savory options for a common goal..."

"...and then deny ever having done so to maintain the moral high ground," Anakin finished, nodding.

...Obi-Wan turned to him and shot him a look. "No."

"So explain it to the class, Master 'I Faked My Own Death'," Anakin retorted.

"Are you still sour about that?" Anakin, really. Your ability to hold grudges... "Yes, I faked my own death. So I could disguise myself as a criminal and stop a Separatist plot that, we felt at the time, could cause immeasurable harm." He took a deep breath. "Anakin here is still upset because I didn't tell him, which is hardly the level of consequence I was attempting to describe."

Anakin rolled his eyes. "Every consequence doesn't have to have galactic ramifications," he said. "Hurting people's feelings is still a consequence you need to take into account." Another sour look Obi-Wan's direction. "Even if you didn't mean to."

"Your reaction is what sold my apparent death to the galaxy in the first place," Obi-Wan said. He shook his head before he got mired in this entirely. "...But, yes, let's discuss. Does intent ever excuse one's actions? Is there an end that justifies any means? If the answer to the first question is 'yes', and to the second is 'no', then how far do you believe someone may go and still remain in the bounds of the acceptable?"

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Well, hey, Karina was going to smile back.

"Yeah," she said, her smile turning a bit wry. "I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure we're all selfish sometimes and that all of us have screwed someone over, big or small, by making a choice and not giving full consideration to someone else. And sometimes full consideration is given and then we go ahead anyway. The thing is, if you do that, you can't get upset at them for being upset at you."

"You can't expect other people to forgive and forget something you did, just because the end result was favorable, unless you're willing to take responsibility and try to repair the damage," Elsa agreed. "That isn't how people work, or it shouldn't be. I don't think anybody should have the right to tell me how I ought to feel about something that affected me, especially when I didn't have any say in what happened, myself."

She fully understood that her sister had every right to be upset at her for avoiding her for so long, even if it was to keep her safe, because avoiding Anna had still been Elsa's choice. She wasn't going to deny that the residual damage was there or that it was her own fault. She wasn't going to tell Anna to get over it.

That wasn't how it worked.

It really, really wasn't.

"Sometimes it'd be nice if it worked like that," Karina confessed. "Like, it's a pain in the ass dealing with people dealing with what you did. But, at the same time, they get that chance and that's a pretty important chance to have."

"We can't deny it to other people and then expect to be given that chance ourselves," Elsa agreed with a little nod. "As much as I would like to always have my way without consequence, expecting that to actually be the case and then proceeding as if it was would be... horrible. It would be horrible."

What sort of queen would that make her?

100% awful, that's what it would make her. As history--and stories!--had proven over and over and over again.

"It'd get ugly quick, too," Karina said. "Because the more you carry on like there is no problem and they're unreasonable for having one, the worse it gets."

Elsa nodded again.

Yeah. Yeah, she knew that one well enough. She was equal parts terrified of someday becoming the wicked ice queen that people spoke about in stories to their children, and worried that her attempts to not become that person would just continue hurting people more.

"The very least you can do is accept that you've done somebody an injustice," she murmured, "and admit to it. And from there, it's their choice as to whether or not to forgive you for it. I don't get to be angry at somebody for not forgiving me for damage I caused. Especially if I'm not planning on changing anything, or trying to fix it."

"Exactly," she said, grimacing slightly. "And that's the consequence you get for being comfortable with your decision despite them being upset."

"Forgiveness is not an obligation."

Elsa smiled again, just a little, and hiked her shoulders up slightly in a short-lived shrug.

"And every decision made has some sort of consequence. People can argue about ends and means all they like, but that doesn't have to matter to anybody who gets hurt along the way."

"I think we're pretty much perfectly agreed here," Karina said, smiling back. "Even when it's uncomfortable."

Ethics, Tuesday

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