Philosophies of Good and Evil, Tuesday

[suitably_heroic]

“If you Google the word ‘kindness’, the evil-multinationals-that-be tell us it means ‘the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.’” Atton was actually standing up today, for once, though the fact that his boots touched the ground didn’t mean his leather-jacket-clad shoulder wasn’t held up primarily by the wall otherwise. “At the start of the class, at least one of you told me that that ‘quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate’ was the definition of good. And I get it. It sounds nice. Definitely looks great on a t-shirt, too. Prime Hallmark World material.”

He gave a wave in Stark’s general direction if he was there. “Problem is,” he said, “In reality, where most of us live, some of those words can actually be in direct opposition to each other, depending on context. Just to give a real simple one to ease you into it: saying ‘hi’ to someone might be friendly, but if that person is a stranger wearing headphones or reading a book, you can’t exactly call it considerate. Because they probably don’t want to hear from you."

"And it's all too easy to weaponize generosity and friendliness," Lana pointed out. "Being overly generous or excessively friendly can make people uncomfortable. Can make them feel as if they owe you, or as if you're pushing yourself at them. Presuming you don't want to do that, that's not exactly a positive."

“It might even wind up being unintentionally manipulative, forcing people into situations where they feel obligated to do things for you that they might not have done, had you not caught them with kindness," Atton agreed.

"Or take the old adage about teaching a guy to fish. If he’s starving, teaching him how to fish won’t cut it. If he’s all right but can’t feed his family, giving him one single flounder isn’t going to do much of anything besides prolong the time it takes for him to get off his ass and learn how to do it for himself.” Cough. Not that anyone here had a name vaguely resembling that of an author with far-reaching issues with charity, or anything.

He shrugged. “Or let’s take this example further. Maybe his long-suffering spouse at home is drowning in childcare and desperately needs him to get a fishing gig so he can feed them long-term, but he doesn’t see the point in doing that when kind people keep handing him fish just often enough to keep them from starving completely. And oh, the fishing company is enabling this behavior from tourists, because renting fishing gear to tourists is more profitable than giving the poor guy a job and selling the fish he catches for them.”

"Not to mention," Lana added, "what if he's allergic to fish? What if fish are sacred to him, and killing them is an abomination? What seems perfectly generous to you might be toxic to someone else, and you can't always know when that might be."

“Does that mean we should throw ‘kindness’ out the window?” Atton posited. He pushed away from the wall. “Maybe that’s taking it a few steps too far. There’s a place for that kind of thing, if you want to do right by people. But maybe we have to broaden our understanding what kindness is. And when it’s appropriate.”

Comments

Sign In!

[suitably_heroic]

Kindly.

Re: Sign In!

[outofthequiver]

Liberty Hazlett

Re: Sign In!

[stykera]

Stark

Re: Sign In!

[napking]

Gray

Re: Sign In!

[sith_happened]

Anakin Skywalker

Re: Sign In!

[gospel_of_oblivion]

Illyana Rasputin

Listen to the Lecture

[suitably_heroic]

Someone sure has something to say about this one.

Questions

[suitably_heroic]

Atton walked to the chalkboard, his eyes still on the class.

Question One

[suitably_heroic]

He twirled a marker between his fingers. “So let’s start there,” he said. “What is kindness to you? Real kindness, not all the problematic cases we just gave you.”

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

"I think you might be overthinking it," Anakin concluded. "'Teach a man to fish unless that's culturally insensitive.' If you try to think of every way reaching out could be taken the wrong way you'll never do anything, and that's not going to help either. The idea behind the cliche was to find a real solution instead of just a stop-gap, but frankly helping someone to eat that day isn't nothing. If you go through your life trying not to make someone else's life more difficult, I think that's a good start towards understanding kindness. But I'm not in charge of other people's reactions and I cannot plan for every contingency. If they take my good-faith gesture badly, that's not on me."

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

"Pleaded the missionary to the judge," Atton drawled.

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

Anakin shrugged. "At least I'm trying."

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

"I realize our universe tends to confuse the matter with all the glowing eyes and the cackling," Atton said, "But most people think they're trying."

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

"Maybe they are," Anakin said. "If they aren't out actively genociding, it doesn't hurt to give them the benefit of the doubt."

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

"Except for all the times it does," Atton noted. "All I'm hearing here is cop-outs, so far."

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

"Then you're not really listening," Anakin replied. "Kindness isn't a fault. It's just being open to helping another being in a considerate way. Maybe it's hugely insulting in another culture not to hold open a door for the next one coming in. Now you've been a jerk by not doing something. 'But what if I do it wrong' can also look like selfishness wrapped up in false piety. Try. Learn. Try again."

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

Atton sighed. "And you're building a strawman like you're someone's anti-woke grandpa complaining about how no one can make jokes anymore," he said. "No one is saying 'don't try anything in case you get it wrong'. But kindness can't just be about what gives the giver a fuzzy feeling, either. Sometimes it helps to overthink a dilemma like that for an hour so you can think about it a smidgen more next time you, I don't know, decide you want to do something for somebody who didn't ask and might not want to feel obligated to you for it."

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

Anakin had no idea what "anti-woke" meant, so he was ignoring that. "Where did I say this was for the giver? I'm not helping other beings for me. I'm helping beings to help beings. If you're doing for yourself, it's not part of the original definition of kindness we were discussing."

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

"So your definition of kindness is helping beings to help beings," Atton said, because arguing the actual intention of his original question seemed uselessly defensive. "But what does that even mean when you also think that if someone can't accept your kindness for what it is, it's their problem, and not yours?"

Re: Question One

[sith_happened]

"I'm saying that as a Jedi, when I engage with the galaxy to right wrongs, to mentor others, and to help those who are in wartorn areas or are victims of natural disasters, I have chosen to not make it about me if I occassionally meet a being who decides to take my offers of help as some kind of offront," Anakin replied. "I won't let the fear of doing it wrong stop me from trying to make things better."

Nursing small grudges had done nothing good for him as a younger Jedi.

Re: Question One

[suitably_heroic]

"Well, hey, I'm glad I don't have to worry about seeing any 'I'm sorry you feel that way' Notes app apologies from you in the near future," Atton said dryly.

He gave up.

Re: Question One

[unusual_sith]

Lana may have given Anakin a Look for that. She had never genocided in her life. Or even killed outside of necessity. And still he refused to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Question Two

[suitably_heroic]

"Can you think of situations in your life where you were kind to someone, or someone was kind to you, and it might have been the wrong decision? Why was that?"

Re: Question Two

[napking]

"Well," Gray said, "I let my dad live, and that was a huge mistake."

He had serious doubts about whether he would be able to actually kill his father if given the opportunity again, but he was well aware that letting Belphegor go in the first place had been, in the grander scheme of things, an error.

Re: Question Two

[suitably_heroic]

Predictably, Atton asked, "Would you do it again?"

Re: Question Two

[napking]

"I would try to do better. I can't guarantee I would succeed. He's still my dad, even if he is hellbent on world domination. Ha. Hellbent." That was funny.

Re: Question Two

[suitably_heroic]

"I'm going to laugh at what I imagine the pun is, having lived here for a bazillion years," Atton offered, and snorted, and said, "So would you characterise that one as 'kind to this one person, maybe not the kindest thing to yourself and/or other people'?"

Re: Question Two

[gospel_of_oblivion]

"Once upon a time, a man spoke sweet words and gave me presents and told me he loved me," Illyana said dryly. "He was very kind to a bored little girl who wanted a playmate, but he did not have good intentions."

"I gave him cause to regret the decision to be kind to me that day."

Re: Question Two

[suitably_heroic]

"Can something be done with bad intentions and still be quote-unquote kind?" Atton asked. "In your opinion."

Question Three

[suitably_heroic]

"So if the answer to 'when is a good time to be kind' isn't 'always', what is it? When are you kind, and when do you decide that maybe harsher truths or actions are better for everyone in the long run? And should 'for everyone' even come into it? Are there cases where not being kind might be the best thing for you, that don't result in something you might term bad or evil?"

Re: Question Three

[stykera]

"Telling someone a harsh truth can be kind," Stark pointed out. "Even if they don't realize it at the time. Sometimes being told something you don't want to hear is what you need."

He'd been told things he didn't want to hear before. It had been for the better even if they may have hurt at the time.

Re: Question Three

[suitably_heroic]

"Sure," Atton said, because he didn't actually disagree with that. "And when do you know you're about to do that, and not being terrible to someone for no reason?"

Question Four

[suitably_heroic]

"I used to know this creepy old lady who liked to use this particular example. So don't judge me by it. It's her fault," Atton said. He cleared his throat. "Imagine you're on the street, and someone comes to you asking for some change. Nearby, you can see a gang watching him - they'll probably jump in and beat him up and take the cash if you give him anything. Do you give him anything? Is it kinder to leave him alone? Will you try to loophole it, figure out some other way to go around it? Do you think that would be effective, and what sacrifices would that take?"

Talk to the Teachers

[suitably_heroic]

Please do not judge Atton by his last name, he's not from this galaxy.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[suitably_heroic]

Atton was in his seat by the end of it, chewing thoughtfully on the cap of his marker.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[unusual_sith]

Lana was really curious about this one, having Opinions on the difference between "kind" and "good".

Which is to say, if she decided to pay the beggar, she'd probably just kill the gang.

OOC

[suitably_heroic]