Practical Philosophy, Monday

[endsthegame]

"There are those of us who come here believing very strongly in duty," Ender said. "Others who come here to escape it - and some to who it's absolutely not a part of their lives."

He smiled a little.

"I had a mentor, once," he said. "I was told that people were free, unless humanity needed them, and that humanity never asked us to be happy, merely to act on its behalf - for its survival. Happiness, he felt, was a luxury that at times we could scarcely afford. To opt out of doing our duty at such a time was the worst crime imaginable: a crime of stupidity."

He took a sip of water. "I've met people who disagreed, since," he said. "I've also met people whose lives were so intricately bound to these rules they didn't even know where they stopped and the rules began. Some of you have already made your views fairly clear already, but I'm curious as to everyone else's input, too.

"How important is duty? Do we people all carry some grand responsibility to our species, or should we exist only for ourselves and the development of our self? And if we live for duty, then when does that end? Is there some point where all of us may be afforded personal freedom, or are we perpetually tied to our responsibilities, whether we flee from them or not?"

Comments

Talk.

[endsthegame]

Duty and responsibility - where do you fall?

Ender's keeping - mostly - quiet on his personal feelings on this one.

Re: Talk.

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

"Mixture of both in my opinion. You have some duty to look out for your own but you are also responsible for your own actions."

Re: Talk.

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

"Who counts as 'your own'?" Cade asked, sipping from his slightly doctored coffee.

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"I kinda hafta agree with Tall, Dark, and Grumpy over here," Joker chipped in. "'Look out for your own' sounds like a good excuse to sit by and do nothing while someone gets hurt."

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"Where is the line drawn?" Eleanor asked.

Re: Talk.

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

"Most of my life has been about duty and responsibility," Elsa noted. "Here has been a pleasant change of pace, but it can hardly last forever. So... I'll enjoy the freedom I have while I'm here, but I really can't afford to brush off the responsibilities that I've got to the people back home. Passing them off on my sister wouldn't be fair to anybody. She's not ready for that sort of weight on her shoulders. It should be a long time before she needs to be."

Truth be told, Elsa wasn't certain she was ready for it, either. But with her parents gone, she was going to have to be ready, either way.

"It's hardly a responsibility to the entire species," she added, "but to people whose well-being is directly tied to how well I do my job later, it still means quite a lot. I don't get the luxury of escaping that, once it's my turn to step up."

... She was clearly not picturing herself being run out of the kingdom on her coronation day, no.

Re: Talk.

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

Cade was apparently feeling chatty today. "So it's more the responsibility you feel for not leaving your sister in the lurch than any 'yay, leadership' thing?"

Re: Talk.

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

"Shit. Damn, Elsa," Barry said shaking his head. "You so need to jump on your bed once."

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

She was just talking about a large estate, with maybe a village or two on its grounds, right? Right. Probably.

"Just out of curiosity, who's got the responsibility right now?" Joker asked. "I mean, there's some sort of... I dunno, steward or something, taking care of things in your name until you come of age? So... what's wrong with handing things back to them when you need a break from everything? You've got responsibilities, sure, but you're still just a person, and you deserve a chance to let your hair down. Part of effective management is learning to delegate."

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

Eleanor chewed her lower lip for a long moment.

"Just because it isn't fair to her," she said, finally, "doesn't obligate you. That's hardly fair to you, otherwise."

Re: Talk.

[not_every_mage]

"It depends, doesn't it?" Anders asked. "I think you have a duty to make whatever's in front of you better -- but at the same time, a life where you never take the time to make yourself happy sounds like no life at all. I'd say duty comes first when there's a crisis, and the rest of the time your life should be up to you."

Re: Talk.

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

"What do you count as a crisis?" Cade wondered. "Kitty up a tree? Pub runs out of beer? Planetary warfare?"

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"Now, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout!" Joker exclaimed. "High five!" He held a hand out.

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"How much better?" Eleanor asked. "Are you obligated to clean up every stray bit of litter, or simply to pitch in when the world seems ready to end?"

Re: Talk.

[pasunereveuse.livejournal.com]

"I think the important here is, as always, your choice in the matter," Celia offered quietly. "If I am coerced into doing something and the excuse I'm given is that it's my duty -- well, that rather colors things, doesn't it? If I feel a sense of responsibility towards an end, it speaks to my character as to whether I fulfill my prescribed duty or not, but if I am born to a task that I never had a say in...then it's not really about duty so much as obligation."

She shook her head, adding, "I think there's really a difference, there. There's something noble and good about the concept of duty -- we think of knights of old and sacrifice. It's romantic. But when it's obligation, you can dress it up as a sense of duty all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're just doing what someone else told you to."

Was it obvious that this very thing was weighing on her mind a bit, lately? Celia was sure it was telegraphed in her every word.

Re: Talk.

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

"I... never thought of it quite that way," Elsa admitted, biting her lip as she looked at Celia thoughtfully. "Even my... obligation... I have a duty to step up to, if that makes any sense at all. I could run. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't considered it. But I've made it my duty, because otherwise I'm simply going through motions that are meaningless to me, beyond what they mean I am and am not allowed to do."

She worried her lip a moment more before adding, "It almost certainly makes a difference as to what those duties or obligations are, though."

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"If you're coerced into something, it's not really a duty, now, is it?" Joker responded. "I mean, not unless you're one of the whackjobs who uses that kind of logic to refuse to pay taxes -- you're not, are you? But, I mean, if you're stuck having to do something against your will... what do they have on you? What'll happen if you don't?"

Re: Talk.

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

"So kark obligation or destiny or whatever," Cade said. "It's your life, not theirs."

Issues, party of two?

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"I like the distinction," Eleanor said, mulling it over. "If someone else has laid a task upon you, then you can't ... it was never a free choice. Someone else chose for you."

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"Again with the binary," Joker complained. "I mean, I know you're trying to stir up discussion, here, but the answer's pretty solidly 'both'. Everything you do -- starting with just 'being alive' and going from there -- comes with inherent rights, and inherent responsibilities. If you shirk your responsibilities, you're a dick. On the other hand, if someone piles on responsibilities to the point that they violate your rights, they're a dick. It's a balance. And if you can't handle responsibilities, don't agree to take them on."

Re: Talk.

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

"And what if the responsibilities are handed to you? What if saying no was never an option, but that wasn't anybody's decision? If it was simply a quirk of fate, the way the world was turning at the time?"

Okay, so ruling a kingdom wasn't impossible, obviously. People had been doing it for generations before Elsa ever came along. But most of those people had more backing them up than two or three servants and a sister who knew nothing about her. And she was pretty sure none of them had to worry about accidentally freezing their subjects or something.

Re: Talk.

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

"What if you don't mind being thought of as a dick if it means people would just leave you alone?" Cade asked.

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"You're not answering the question," Eleanor said, lifting a shoulder. "You say that as if there's a clearly-drawn line that everyone ought to be able to see. And what about responsibilities one never agreed to at all?"

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

"It isn't anyone's responsibility to save the world, or the universe, or the species," Eleanor said brusquely. "If they choose to take it upon themselves, so be it, but it isn't a moral failing to not be some sort of self-sacrificing hero."

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"Hell, Babe," Joker chided her, "if we're talking saving the world, that's kind of everyone's responsibility, isn't it? There's not really room to not be a hero. But I don't think that's really what the class is about."