Ethics Class, Monday, 2-4pm

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Angelus is gone," Tara informs the class solemnly. "Now, I know you've all heard the 'evil soul' excuse before, and that you're sick and tired of it. I am too. It would be nice if you could just trust that each person had only one face. However, with the number of unrelated identical twins running around the place, that was never going to happen, so let's all just let it go and deal with what is. Angelus is gone, and Angel is here.

"Most of you know that Angelus and I are Sunnydale expatriots. I assure you that I am in a better position than almost anyone you can think of to guarantee that he and Angel are very, very different people.

"With that in mind, today's discussion is about punishment for crimes done - and I say with that in mind, because if Angel does have the courage to walk through that door today, I will not tolerate anyone accusing him of crimes that were committed through his mouth and hands, but without his knowledge or consent. Please think of him as an unrelated identical twin, as different as Archie and Lee, or Cameron and John Crichton."

Comments

First Hour

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Okay, here's your discussion topic: pick two classes of punishment, and by that I mean corporal, capital, imprisonment, fines, behavioural rehabilitation.

"Support one, and explain why you advocate it. Attack the other. What are the ethical issues surrounding each? And in what circumstances is it appropriate?"

[ooc: Yes, this is two questions, where Friday's class only got one. Friday's class was one question up on Monday's, though, so this brings us even. Trust me. I'm an Ethics teacher.]

Corporal Punishment

[brambless.livejournal.com]

(defined: physical abuse, such as caning or cutting off a hand)

Re: Corporal Punishment

[chasingangela]

"I think physical punishment just lowers us to the level of the original offender-- lower, even, if it's something like cutting a hand off for stealing. It might work, but I don't think that makes it okay."

Re: Corporal Punishment

[allie-cameron.livejournal.com]

"I agree with Angela," Allie says. "Physical punishment just perpetrates a cycle of violence."

Re: Corporal Punishment

[actingltcrumpet.livejournal.com]

I understand that corporal punishment is frowned upon in this day and age, and even in my own time it is starting to acquire a certain disfavor -- though one would likely be ridiculed as "soft" and "liberal-minded" to publicly state such a thing. Yet -- again, purely within the context of my experiences in my own time -- I do not necessarily see it as such a bad thing. I live in a harsh environment, where punishment must be severe, and executed publicly, in order to be taken seriously. We simply haven't the time nor the manpower to spare for exacting a less severe form of discipline, and often making a public display of one malcontent serves as a highly effective deterrent to others who may be considering the same, to say nothing of the effect such humiliation may have on the punished.

Bear in mind here that I am speaking only of corporal punishment, not capital; I fail to see the purpose in making a display of the latter, and find it a base and undignified treatment.

Capital Punishment

[brambless.livejournal.com]

(defined: killing in punishment for a crime)

Re: Capital Punishment

[soldtoarmenians]

Believe it or not considering some things I'm sure people have heard me say about certain not-here TA's in the past, I'm not big on killing as punishment for something. It doesn't exactly teach anybody not to do it again. All it does is stop them from doing it again.

But I'm good with that, if there's no other way. Some things.. or maybe even people... aren't gonna change. Or even if they could, the chance of them hurting or killing people before that happens may not be worth the risk.

Re: Capital Punishment

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"So you don't advocate capital punishment, but you would support selective assassination?"

Re: Capital Punishment

[wannabelawyer.livejournal.com]

I want to believe that people can change. If you kill them, there's no way they'll be changing after that. Death's pretty final. And I just don't think it works. If it worked as a deterrent, people wouldn't still be killing others. And personally I think rotting in a cell is a worse punishment than a quick and relatively painless death. And ultimately, if you're killing someone for killing someone, how is that better? I can understand wanting to, but shouldn't we be better than that by now?

Re: Capital Punishment

[forlornslayer.livejournal.com]

How is killing as a punishment for killing right?

There are several ethical problems with that soultion, but one of the things that stands out is that you don't pay for your crime if you in turn are killed. There is no punishment in death. And I know for a fact that just because you're killed doesn't mean you stay dead.

Imprisonment

[brambless.livejournal.com]

(defined: jail sentences, for example)

Re: Imprisonment

[defiantlyyours.livejournal.com]

"Imprisonment seems like a fine solution until you consider that your rights are stripped and you are stuck in a gulag for the mind with no hope for appeal or escape." 6 sniffs. "It is inhuman."

Re: Imprisonment

[chasingangela]

"I think imprisonment is the least bad option. It stops someone from committing further crimes and offers an opportunity for rehabilitiation." Angela appears satisfied for almost a second, and then her brows knot. "Of course, sometimes they just talk to other criminals and end up even more violent, and I can see Sxi's point about the lack of rights for prisoners."

"There really aren't any good choices, are there?"

Re: Imprisonment

[apocalypsesoon.livejournal.com]

"I'm wavering on this one. If it's just a lockup, then all it does is make you out of date, not any less dangerous. And you take someone slightly dangerous and put them with other dangerous people, they pick up skills. Like I did. Not a good plan."

Behavioural Rehabilitation

[brambless.livejournal.com]

(defined: personality alteration by means of counselling, hypnosis, etc.)

Re: Behavioural Rehabilitation

[shane-mcc.livejournal.com]

"Even though... I talked against this on Friday - or, at least against the memory wipes, I think... I think, if the person really does want help, counseling could work," Shane says quietly. "It gets the person thinking about what they've done and with the counselor's help, they can work out why they did what they did and how they can avoid doing that again."

Re: Behavioural Rehabilitation

[master-of-fear.livejournal.com]

"A person is no use to society if they can not function within it. If all the prison system does is turn out ex-inmates so institutionalized they lash out against the world, we have a se;f-perpetuating cycle.

Counseling and therapy offer ways to rehabilitate a person. Discover why they act violently or distructively and change it. By doing so, you make them able to contribute to society. The cycle is broken and the person is fixed.

Re: Behavioural Rehabilitation

[allie-cameron.livejournal.com]

"I think there needs to be more early intervention and counselling to find out what makes someone commit a crime so they can learn how not to do it again."

Re: First Hour

[egyptianlove.livejournal.com]

Evelyn thinks for a moment before answering. "Well, I would very much support behavioural rehabilitation. It's the least cruel, but still effective. Ethically, I guess rehabilitation isn't perfect. People aren't asked if they want to change thier behaviour; it's forced on them. But of course all punishments are forced..." She trails off.

[[OOC: New Evie!mun here. Please cut me a bit of slack in the characterization dept; haven't watched the movies in a while. Of course, feel free to rip her answer apart...]]

Re: Behavioural Rehabilitation

[apocalypsesoon.livejournal.com]

"I'd combine this with the jailing, cuz there may be no way to make sure that someone goes to some 'this is gonna be better for ya in the long run' BS if it's voluntary. This would be the plus side of jails, where you learn a skill or a trade or something that helps ya out on the outside."

Fines

[brambless.livejournal.com]

(defined: You can break the law if you can pay the price.)

Re: Fines

[soldtoarmenians]

This one always seemed like pretty much a crock to me, on the bigger scale.

Doesn't mean I want to go to jail for a speeding ticket; I get that some fines are there just to keep people from doing petty stuff that could be dangerous or they could get away with it scot free if they're lucky. So it's to make things safer.

But things like fines for industrial pollution? Stuff in the thousands and millions of bucks range? Anything with a fine that big -- or puts people in danger that much -- seems to me like it's not something somebody should be able to buy their way out of.

Re: Fines

[master-of-fear.livejournal.com]

This seems to be an extremely classist form of punishment. Those who are very rich don't mind paying a fine, and the more money they have, the more they can pay. Those with comparitively less money aren't able to get away with the same things. If you're a billionaire, who cares about a $100 ticket? But if you work 2 jobs and you and your famlily are living paycheck to paycheck a $100 ticket can break you.

Re: Fines

[egyptianlove.livejournal.com]

Evelyn sighs. "Fines are pretty much useless. It sets a double standard: those who are rich can do whatever they want, and the poor just get poorer, or go to jail." She frowns. "Besides, does it even make people stop?"

Re: First Hour

[soldtoarmenians]

[ooc - OMG trusts you totally because you're a hot girl and I'm a hormonal teenage boy an Ethics teacher!]