fandomhigh | Philosophy classroom: Ethics class #3, Monday, 2-4pm

Two boxes sit on Tara's desk. One is filled with homemade cookies, with a small placard labelled 'To all those who attempted the assignment - help yourselves!'. The other is a bin to return the Master/slave badges at the end of the class.

Tara smiles as the students settle down.

"I told you last week that part of the point of this assignment was to separate out the issues of slavery and abuse. There are many, many issues with slavery, even without abusive elements attached, and I want to tell you how proud I am of all of you for attempting the assignment - especially those of you who were uncomfortable with it. I have a lot I want to say, but I'm going to bite my tongue and let you all speak, first. Tell me about your experiences with the assignment - what was challenging for you? What was easier than you thought it would be? Do you have any insights you would like to share?"

[ooc: If you would provide linkage to any RPed assignment bits and pieces, I would be forever grateful when it comes time for grading. Also, those of you who made icons? I adore you, and worship your icon-fu.]

"I would not ask anything of you that I am unwilling to do myself - including act as a slave. Anyone who completed the assignment is eligible to 'win' me as a slave, under the same terms of the assignment as you performed. I realise many of you are probably glad that this is over, but if you are interested, or want revenge, please put your name down on the sheet provided. I will post this as a voting list, and the involved parties will decide as a class who is to Master me, and what is to be done with me."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"Okay, this is all good stuff. Now let's take it back to a discussion topic.

Much of the issues arising about slavery are bound up in the violation of another's free will. In parts of Africa, the word for slave is the same as the word for child - as many of you may have found, the basic responsibilities for a Master are not unlike those of a parent, and the power dynamic allows equal opportunity for abuse, though thankfully one that is seized upon much less often.

So today I'd like you to think about the 'helpless' - those people in society, including children and the mentally disabled, who are unable to care for themselves. Obviously, it is someone's responsibility to care for them. What are they expected to do for themselves, or contribute to society? At what age or level of competence are they allowed to have sex, drive a car, raise a family? Does denying the helpless the right to choose any of these things for themselves have any relation to slavery?"

Children are adults in miniature form. When they become old enough to do basic functions on their own, they are expected to become productive members of society and serve the Greater Good in their chosen career. Those unable to care for themselves will be Dealt With through Other Means. ::she says this in a monotone voice, suggesting that it was something she had memorized rather than actually believed::

Other than that, ::shrugs:: I...I have no idea. Realistically, nobody owes anybody anything - except for owing it to yourself to care for yourself.

::blinks:: Wait, whadya mean "allowed" to have sex? Who cares when ya have sex? ::is honestly confused at that::

"There are laws against children having sex up to a certain age," Angelus said. "Of course those change from region to region, which does make you wonder what the criteria is."

"Let's not worry about laws," Tara suggests. "Chiana, Angelus... how old do you think a person has to be to make those decisions for themselves? 16? 12? Can a child of seven make the decision to have sex?"

"Depends on the kid," Angelus said. "I've met five year olds with more savvy and maturity than some I've met at 50, and that's without any discerinable illness to explain it."

"Do you think a five year old, no matter how 'savvy', should be allowed to conduct a sexual relationship?"

"Not no matter how savvy, no," Angelus said. "Because if they're not savvy then they don't have brains enough to tie their shoes, let alone figure out what they want in the bedroom. Which isn't to say I don't think they should never have sex."

[ooc: going to bed now, back later]

Well, yeah. I mean, if...if they know what they're gettin' into and agree to it, why not? Picking some...some arbitrary number seems more dangerous to me, since it says that everybody above that age is mature enough to have sex, when that's so not the case.

"Alright," Tara smiles, nodding her agreement with the latter half of Chiana's statement. "And how do you know if they know what they're getting into? Or understand enough to agree?"

Not the same thing. Not the same.
If they're truly helpless, really helpless, they can't make their own decisions. Can't deny them choices if they could never have had them. They need help.
Not the same with slaves. We...they are denied things, everything, choices they should have.

"So what decisions can a slave make, Stark?"

"Does denying the helpless the right to choose any of these things for themselves have any relation to slavery?"

"I think it does," Shane says, nodding, a pensive furrow to her brow. "It's... it's making decisions for someone else. In some ways, though, it's different... because kids... don't know what's best for them. It's hard to say what age a group of people should be to drive a car or have sex or whatever... because it -- it's an individual thing. Some people are... capable of more than others."

"Okay," Tara nods. "So not an age. What skills or capabilities does a person have to demonstrate to be allowed to have sex, for example?"

Shane considers the question very carefully for a few moments. "I don't think it's skill or capability so much, but... they should know that they should be responsible for themselves and for the other person. Not just, like, physically, with birth control or condoms or whatever, but... emotionally, too. I think they need to have the emotional maturity to handle having sex."

Xander slides into the classroom around 3-ish, but doesn't speak up until he gets a feel for the other conversations going on.

"It's kinda hard to say - sure, you've got 16 year olds who are okay to drive a car or have sex, and others who shouldn't drive a car ever, and probably shouldn't be doing the dirty for a couple more years - but then, who gets to decide? And how do we know they're qualified to make that call?"

Tara grins. "What about if you ruled the world? Qualified or not, how would you make that call?"

"If I ruled the world? ~~Every day would be the first day of Spring.~~ I'd... I dunno. Set up some kind of testing system that's actually trustworthy? Mind readers, or truth spells, or something?" Xander shakes his head. "Still comes down to either making across-the-board rules that screw somebody, somewhere, in order to protect other people, or trusting somebody to make the judgement calls."

Children are under the control of their parents for a good reason, when they are young, they lack the ability to care for themselves. Once they are able to care for themselves the dynamic between them and their parents change. It's why teenagers rebel, they're often emotionally mature enough to not need their parents protecting them from things, but can't yet be financially independent. Maturity takes place at different times and that is part of the individual experience of raising a child.

Slavery is an explotative and (in my opinion) immoral practice, it isn't however (as the assignment demonstrated) an nessecarily abusive practice. Several slavery situations are abusive, when a master believes they are in complete control over another being they can and will do whatever they want to that person, it is not however, a prerequisite for slavery. What is wrong about slavery is that it takes away the natural freedoms a person has, not that it's abusive. I think that was part of what you were trying to illustrate.

Philosophy classroom: Ethics class #3, Monday, 2-4pm

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