Ethics [Thursday, September 16, 2nd period]

[sith_happened]

"'Do unto others as you would have done unto you,'" Anakin quoted as the students found their seats. "On this planet, that phrase is known as the Golden Rule. It sounds quite altruistic, which might be why they are more than a few more cynical versions of it around: 'do unto others before they can do unto you,' and the like. The rule also seems to be assuming that everyone wants the same things done to them. But what if you don't mind getting poked in the stomach? Does it follow that you could aimlessly poke people? What if you don't see anything wrong with stealing, or killing, or hating entire groups of people?"

He shrugged. "I suppose the Golden Rule could be simplified as 'be nice to people, so they'll be nice to you' but out here in the real world, we all know it doesn't exactly work like that, and the concept could also be reinterpreted as 'it doesn't bother me, so why does it bother you?' Is this a case of aiming for an ideal and hoping that it will cause a ripple effect of positive things, or something overly simplistic that taken to its logical extreme renders itself useless?"

He smiled. "I like to ask nice, easy questions."

Comments

Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[sith_happened]

"What if you don't mind getting poked in the stomach? According to the Golden Rule, would it follow that you could aimlessly poke people? What if you don't see anything wrong with stealing, or killing, or hating entire groups of people?"

Or:

"Is the Golden Rule a case of aiming for an ideal and hoping that it will cause a ripple effect of positive things, or something overly simplistic that taken to its logical extreme renders itself useless?"

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[furnaceface]

//I think th'point of the rule isn't, 'do unto others as you don't mind people doing unto you,// Jonothon noted, crossing his arms over his something-like-a-chest and raising his eyebrows. //Even if somebody didn't mind being poked, I should think they would mind if somebody else chose not to respect their personal levels of comfort. And stealing is an inside-out notion entirely, really. A better question to ask would be, 'what if you don't see anything wrong with being stolen from, or murdered, or hated because of what you are?'//

He shook his head and narrowed his eyes a little, somewhere toward his desk.

//I can't think of many people who are terribly keen on any of that, really.//

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[anarchist-queen.livejournal.com]

"Sounds like it's a case of, take an ideal, and put a catchy, easily remembered phrase to it and hope it catches on."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[didntchewgrass.livejournal.com]

"It's a foolish rule," Elphaba said. "While well intentioned, it doesn't make sense. If you don't think well enough of a person to not make fun of them, then you hardly care if they try to make fun of you. So you treat them terribly and that's that. It's not going to make anyone be nice."

She had quite a bit of experience, there.

"The best to say would be... don't deliberately hurt others, and try to make amends if you do. But even then, you realize that sometimes you have to hurt others to stop them from... hurting others." She frowned at the imprecise nature of her statement.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[furnaceface]

Jono cast a sideways sort of look at the girl. Green, he noted. Well, add that to the list of interesting rainbow colours that he'd seen on people over the past handful of years.

//You can't make people like you just by giving them th'respect that you want in turn, gel, but there's little need to provoke people needlessly, either. Hate begets hate, isn't that what they say? It might not make anybody play nice, but if it's a rule that isn't twisted out of context, at th'very least, it can save people from more trouble than there might be otherwise.// He shifted his weight a little. He still didn't care much for speaking so much in front of so many people. //I think... if it's a case of stepping in to intervene when somebody is causing someone else needless pain, they've somewhat... forfeit their right to have their wishes respected. Th'rule in that case ought to apply to the victim. Rescue as you would like to be rescued.//

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[didntchewgrass.livejournal.com]

Elphaba nodded in agreement. "I wasn't saying that it might not do good," she said. "But that those who would be begetting the hate probably don't care about a Golden Rule unless they can strip the gold out of it for their own pockets."

She was cynical about most people, it was true.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[furnaceface]

Really, it was cynicism that Jonothon couldn't argue against.

//Well, if you ask me, which, I understand, yer not,// Jono was just a nosy bastard who liked to give his own opinion, so there, //if anything, th'rule can be twisted around in turn to say, 'if you'd like people to roll over and take any abuse you want to deal to them, you had better be bloody well willing to take just as much abuse in turn.'//

He shrugged lightly. //But th'ones who need it fed to them like that are generally th'ones least willing to pay attention to it, as you've said.//

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[didntchewgrass.livejournal.com]

Elphaba, in turn, finally took a good look at the boy she was addressing and found herself quite curious.

"I was not asking, but the class is a place for discussion," she said. "So it is of course your place to speak your mind. I do wish others would be nice, and treat people justly. But I do not allow myself to hope that they will do so out of some sense of fairness."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

"And what if I don't find killing or hating entire groups of people wrong?" Azula countered to see how Master Skywalker would answer the question.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[furnaceface]

Jono wasn't about to say anything to that statement, but there was a wince from him, before he turned his gaze downward and shook his head a little.

He happened to be a member of a group that was hated, hunted, and killed by virtue of their being different. Hearing a friend saying something like that managed to rub a bit of a raw nerve.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

She'd forgotten about Jono being here and realized too late. Azula looked in his direction and judged from his posture that he had reacted to her words. Azula opened her mouth to say something appeasing then thought better of it and said:

"Does it make you uncomfortable I might not hold the same values you do?"

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[furnaceface]

When it was phrased like that, Jonothon almost felt stupid for reacting at all. But. There was always a but.

//If it means that you don't care one way or the other about th'prosecution and murder of other people? Yes.//

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

Just as she suspected, Jono would have no love about her past. She could sugar coat it, hide it but the truth was Azula doesn't regret anything she's done in the name of the Fire Nation, her father and her ambitions.

"I come from a nation of warriors," she began. "And all that implies. My country waged war for a century, so yes, the life of an enemy means something very different for me. But in my world and even in my country there is no prejudice against people who have abilities or people who don't. Can you say the same for your world?"

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[didntchewgrass.livejournal.com]

Elphaba, so help her, took the bait.

"Then you might as well be made of tin," she said. "Heartless as you seem."

Her expression was part sarcasm, part cold stare.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

Azula turned to look at the girl, her skin color then merely raised an eyebrow and shrugged. "Then I'm heartless."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[didntchewgrass.livejournal.com]

Elphaba raised her eyebrow back. "Well at least you're honest about it," she said, not feeling the desire to try and argue with someone who seemed quite content with being wicked.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[brat-intraining.livejournal.com]

Kennedy hadn't grown so much that her answer would be notably different now than it had been a year and change ago, but she had grown enough that she stopped to think about it before answering.

"It's way too broad-- or vague, or whatever-- to be useful," she said easily. A faint smirk she wouldn't explain crossed her face as she added, "It sounds good and all, kinda looks good framed in cross-stitch, or spelled out in Swarovski crystal even if that is way tacky. But you're gonna run into complications if you're just gonna assume everybody you run across on the street wants to be a decent person."

You know. Like if that guy on the street corner could go yellow-eyed and bumpy-faced any second and try to eat you. Because she didn't want to return the favor. Ew.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[faithandscience.livejournal.com]

"It's an ideal, certainly," William acknowledged. "And I think some might choose to interpret it as you say, along the lines of 'I did it because I don't see anything wrong with it', but those who do try that argument usually are aware that they have done something wrong and are trying to confuse the issue with semantics." He blushed, thinking of the times he'd used 'But it was for science!' as an excuse for wrongdoing.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[talks-backwards.livejournal.com]

"There is a difference between finding something offending or not, and deciding that since it doesn't affect you, then it shouldn't affect anyone at all. That's really childish, and, in its own way, offensive." She shrugged, since she didn't think people that way would actually stop to think about it. "It's like an allergy; I might not die if I eat peanuts, but because of that I shouldn't be careful that someone next to me might or might not be allergic." It was a little exaggerated, but she thought the idea was there.

"I guess it's just a way to say something complicated in a simple way? Be nice and people will be nice to you, the idea isn't to see the fact the world doesn't work like that, but to set an example so more and more people act that way?"

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[showmetheproof.livejournal.com]

Scully knew that Professor Skywalker wasn't this dense, so it was a question aimed at getting the students to explain the concepts. All of her latent Catholicism flinched at the phrasing, but she calmly said, "It's an ideal. First generated in a historical time where 'an eye for an eye' was considered good sense. In that context, the idea of killing a runaway slave, or a thief, was considered normal practice, and marrying someone who assaulted you the best you could hope for, if you were a woman." She paused. "Anything taken to an extreme is either martyrdom or, in a world not mine, I suppose, enlightenment."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[squire-hand.livejournal.com]

"It's an ideal. Nice idea, doesn't work." Simple.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[dontvotemeout]

"I think the Golden Rule is way, way too simple," Jason said. "Treating people nicely is no guarantee those people will be nice back. Some people will even see politeness as a sign of weakness, and then you could really be screwed."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[nohaircutsplz]

Medusalith still didn't get it, but she felt like she was on solid ground saying, "I feel that one would have to apply faulty logic to reach that extreme," treading very carefully and wording her statement selectively to hopefully avoid offending her teacher, "as any reasonable individual can conclude that it is not meant as a cultural mandate to be horrible to other people."

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[whateverknight.livejournal.com]

With all the turmoil of deep, philosophical thoughts rattling around in Squall's head, you'd think he'd want to share some of that.

Instead, the words that came out of his mouth were, "It's not the Golden Law. It's not like people are required to follow it, anyway."

Now that he'd neatly sidestepped the questions so that he didn't have to bother answering any of them, he went back to his internal debate over whether the rule actually implied good things would come back to you, or if that was irrelevant.

Re: Answer one of the many, many questions! [9/16]

[wrongkindofsith]

"It's a foolish notion," Cara didn't snap. Her voice was level, even, almost too flat. Her fingers gripped the empty holster at her thigh.