Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #11, Mar 23]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

This week, Alex was carrying a large styrofoam cup that she had filled with hot water. She was dunking a teabag into the cup as she talked, the string looped around two of her fingers so it wouldn't slip off. Tea-on-the-go.

"Afternoon," she said, nodding to her students. "First of all, I apologize that I wasn't as detached from the subject matter as I'd like to have been, last week. I try to present gray areas so that we can discuss all angles of a situation; having my own experiences color the talk don't do us any favors."

That was all she felt comfortable saying about that.

"The topic of civil court came up during last week's discussion, so I decided now was a good time for us to cover that. All of the law we've discussed this term has been criminal law. A citizen commits a crime, and the government, on behalf of the People, files charges. The case goes to trial, and the prosecution bears the burden of proof. If found guilty, the citizen will presumably be sent to prison.

"However. The judicial system can also settle disputes between two private parties, or between organizations. Let's say that you and a mechanic sign a contract, saying that you'll pay him $500 and he will replace your engine. After a week, the mechanic says he can't replace your engine, and returns the car -- but refuses to refund your money. You could argue that this is theft, and attempt to have him arrested on criminal charges, but it's going to be an uphill battle, and it won't get your money back. Instead, you would file a lawsuit in civil court, asking a judge to determine that he is in breach of his contract. If the judge agrees, the mechanic can be ordered to pay you the $500, plus possibly your fees for going to court, or a few hundred more in 'punitive' damages, to slap him on the wrist.

"Civil court also covers torts, wrongful acts that damage someone while not necessarily being criminal. If you cause harm to someone else from negligence and not malicious intent, the victim might file suit against you to pay for their medical bills, along with 'pain and suffering.' Damage doesn't have to be physical; libel and slander are both torts, and those involve maliciously damaging a person's reputation. It should be noted here that truth is a valid defense for libel and slander, regardless of the malice. So if the tabloids publish a sleazy article saying that you're a homewrecker who is sleeping with a politician, it's malicious, but you won't win a libel case if they can prove the affair happened.

"In civil court, the burden of proof is on the person filing charges. But the requirements are more lax. You don't need proof beyond a reasonable doubt; the jury only needs to believe that the allegation is more likely to be true than not. And while criminal trials require a jury to reach a unanimous verdict, civil court can settle with nine out of twelve agreeing." She offered a wry smile to her students. "As we're not at trial, I'd like to remind you that we're not obligated to agree on anything whatsoever. So let's talk about civil court."

Comments

Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

What situation might lead you to file suit against another person or a particular institution? Do you feel civil court is an adequate way of addressing wrongs that do not belong in criminal court? What offenses could be considered torts, but not crimes? How difficult (or easy) should it be for one party to file suit against another, and bring the matter to court?

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"So, suing somebody is just a big complicated way of asking a judge to decide who wins an argument?" Kurt asked. "Then how come everyone acts like it's just a way for whiny people to get money?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Good question," Alex said. "It's because the winner of the argument is usually awarded money, and because sometimes lawsuits are filed on very frivolous -- or what seem to be ludicrous, to the layperson -- grounds. If a burglar breaks into your house, and then breaks his legs because your basement stairs are rotted, should he be able to sue you for negligence?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"No, of COURSE not!" Kurt answered immediately. "That's crazy!"

Then he thought about it some more. "But... if he breaks into an apartment building, maybe then? Because the stairs are sort of public?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"He's still committing a felony," Alex said, nodding, "but he'd be injured no matter why he was on those stairs. It gets complicated. Criminals have rights as much as anyone else. The real problem is that our society has gotten the idea that suing someone is a way to make them comply with whatever you feel they've done wrong. Suits are messy, and expensive, and don't always follow the rules of logic."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt thought about that. "So... if someone sues you, and they didn't have a good reason to, can you sue them for suing you? That would stop some of the bad suing, wouldn't it?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"It would, and you can," Alex smiled. "You file a countersuit. You ask for the other side to pay your legal fees, and maybe slap on a little extra to compensate you for the harassment you've been through."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

"It all seems so...money-based," Aravis said with no small amount of distaste. "The criminal court exists to bring justice. Civil court and these lawsuits seem, simply, like a means to extort money from another based on a claim. It should be very difficult, I should think. And certainly not a means of income."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Difficult how?" Alex asked. "Should there be a certain standard of proof met before a person can file suit? Does your answer change if this is small claims court, where one person is suing his neighbor for $300 instead of millions?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[momslilassassin]

Ben raised his hand. "It's not unheard of for nonhumans to sue for reparation in discrimination cases at home," he offered after consulting Wookieepedia.

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Fascinating," Alex said, tilting her head slightly at the boy. "Are the juries and judges usually human or non-? Are most of the suits successful?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[momslilassassin]

"It depends on which court they bring it up in," Ben made up said. "Most start regionally, and that can lead to regional prejudices on the juries as well. It can take years to get to the Courts of Justice on Coruscant."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"I would believe it," Alex said with a wry smile. "It takes cases years to work their way up to the Supreme Court, and we're only talking one country here, not a system of planets. Do you think the lawsuits are effective? Either at righting those wrongs, or possibly influencing local tradition?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[momslilassassin]

"I think it depends," Ben said after a brief pause. "Getting old Imperials to realize that women and nonhuman species have the same rights takes time--getting people to acknowledge things like slavery and xenocide takes even longer--but I think the courts add a legitimacy to the proceedings that a media exposé just can't provide."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I think civil court has its place," Dinah said cautiously. "Especially if someone's lost income or property, or gotten hurt, because of someone else's screw-up. But I do wonder about the standards for the cases being brought. I mean, I know criminal courts have a grand jury first, to indict someone-- do they have anything like that for civil cases? Or does the judge just decide?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"No grand juries," Alex said with a wry smile. "Having said that, someone filing a frivolous lawsuit can be counter-sued by the defendant, for court costs or punitive damages. A judge could take one look at a lawsuit, throw it out, and order the defendant to pay up."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"That's good, then," Dinah said, reassured. "Although I guess some people would be so sure they'd win, they'd still go ahead with a suit that's kind of silly. But the lawyers should know better. And yeah, for cases of not really fraud, or just business negligence-- it shouldn't have to go to a criminal court." She frowned. "I'm not sure about the whole criminal-civil line there, though. I guess it's good, but. The ways it could be abused seem wide open."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"I'm not sure I'm following," she admitted. "Abused how? Are you concerned that certain parties might push cases to be tried civilly instead of criminally?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Yeah, or-- can they sue someone who's been convicted in criminal court? Wouldn't that be kind of a slam-dunk? Someone gets convicted of manslaughter or, I don't know. Some other crime, and then someone else sues them? Or is that not allowed?"

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Court findings are allowed in other proceedings," she said, "unless those records are specifically sealed for any reason. So, yes. If an executive drives drunk and runs over a teenage girl, and goes to jail for manslaughter, her family can also sue for wrongful death. He'll probably settle out of court, since it is going to be such a slam-dunk."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

That example had Dinah tilting her head, looking thoughtful. "Actually, I think that changed my mind. I think I'm glad we have both. It wouldn't make up for losing a daughter or sister, but it would maybe be one more way to make someone think about what they're doing, once they're out of jail."

Re: Discussion - Civil Court - JST11

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Alex offered a quick flash of a smile. "It's not used as often as you might be thinking," she said. "In cases like Simpson's, they sought redress in civil court since criminal failed them. Usually the convicted doesn't have the money to make it worthwhile."