Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #9, Mar 9]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Justice," Alex began, "is frequently depicted as a pair of balancing scales. If you've been paying attention so far this semester, you probably can see how that would be appropriate. A lot of the fundamentals of justice are, at heart, an elaborate balancing act. When the lines have to be drawn, what do you privilege? Where do you err, in the gray areas? That's something we've been discussing, in one form or another, nearly every week."

"This week, we're going straight to the heart of the matter." Alex pointed to the blackboard, which had a few sentences written on it.

FOURTHLY, all presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously: for the law holds, that it is better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.

"This is known as Blackstone's Formulation," Alex said, "although the principle behind it is much older. Sir John Fortescue said much the same a few centuries earlier. The idea here is that, all else being equal, it is better for a judicial system to acquit ten guilty people than to convict one innocent person.

"Obviously, the ideal would be to convict every guilty person and to never convict anyone who was innocent. But that's not realistic. Some accused will confess. Some crimes, you will have clear and undeniable evidence. The rest of the time? You have a great deal of evidence pointing towards that person, while he or she swears innocence.

"It is each society's decision, what to prioritize in that moment. Not all follow Blackstone. Otto von Bismarck said the opposite: better to imprison ten innocent men than to let one guilty go free. Bismarck's country would presumably have less crime, but I'll say, I still wouldn't want to live there.

"If society decides that it's better to acquit the innocent than convict the guilty, then the burden of proof is on the prosecutors. The government has to prove, within a reasonable doubt, that this person is guilty. Reasonable doubt doesn't mean no doubt at all. If aliens might have abducted this person and replaced him with a body double, that's certainly an alternate theory of the crime, but it's hardly a plausible one."

At least, for places that weren't Fandom.

"No one is found innocent in a court of law: the verdicts are Guilty or Not Guilty, and sometimes the latter means 'we're not sure.' If you're not convinced, as a jury member, you should vote Not Guilty. Put the burden on the prosecutors. Make us do our job.

"By contrast, if you're living in Bismarck's world, you have to prove your innocence, if you're charged with a crime. Proving a negative is difficult. Find a good alibi, find a good attorney, and good luck."

Alex clasped her hands together, in front of herself. "So. That's this week's topic. Reasonable doubt, and balancing those scales. Do you follow Blackstone, or Bismarck?"

Comments

Sign In! - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Guilty. Or innocent.

Re: Sign In! - JST09

[bitten_notshy]

Jack Priest

During the Lecture - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Take notes. Pass notes. Write down that sentence on the board. Be happy that she took out the long-S's that looked like Fs.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan took some notes, though she wasn't sure how she felt about the sentence on the board.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[exspeedydotcom]

Roy took notes, and thought about how glad he was that Ms. Cabot seemed to not be crazy any more.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt took notes, thought deeply about the sentence on the board, and decided that Chancellor Bismarck was kind of a jerk.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[noearsyet.livejournal.com]

After the way George had spent the end of last week, this whole topic seemed more funny than it ought. And he wondered how Miss Cabot would consider stealin' things t'prevent others from using them worse.

So he spent much of the time wondering how Beka would be answerin' the questions.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[glacial_queen]

Sometimes, Karla felt profoundly uncomfortable in this class--usually when it highlighted the vast differences between this world and hers. It wasn't that she didn't have an opinion, it was more that the entire system was alien to her.

So she was taking notes and thinking hard.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[heromaniac]

Momoko was taking notes. The idea on the blackboard made sense, and she was actually looking forward to the discussion today.

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[likethegun]

Sam was very glad to be back here this week, with notes to focus on to make him feel like a proper geek again.

Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Which society would you rather live in? Do you feel the burden of proof should be on the individual accused, or society? Are there any crimes which you feel merit different consideration? Are you more upset by the prospect of the innocent being convicted, or by the guilty walking free?

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[therewaslife]

"I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in a society that believes mostly in Blackstone's theory," said Bod after some time to think about it. "On the comfort level, it'd be a lot easier to want to be an active member of society if I wasn't worried that a small misstep or something someone perceives as a crime gets me locked up when it wouldn't otherwise be deserved."

In Bismarck's society, Bod was pretty sure he'd already be in jail. "Bismarck's society almost sounds like martial law where anyone can be locked up if someone in a position of authority thinks you're in the wrong. Twenty people are locked up due to possibly being a threat when no one really is. It'd be overbearing and difficult."

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[momslilassassin]

"I've lived in both," Ben said quietly. "I prefer Blackstone. Bismarck is oppressive."

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"How can ANYONE justify putting innocent people in jail?" Kurt protested.

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[noearsyet.livejournal.com]

George shrugged a little. "I'd rather be livin' where th'rights of th'innocent do have greater weight."

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[heromaniac]

Momoko thought about it for only a few seconds. "You shouldn't have to prove you're innocent. The police should have to have proof that you did what they say and if they can't prove it, it's not your fault."

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I think I'm more unsettled by the idea of the innocent being convicted," Dinah said. "With the guilty going free, yeah, they can try again-- but so can you, if they commit another crime. It's harder to disprove a negative, like you said. If anyone's vulnerable to accusations, we'd all have to be on our guard, all the time. Too hard to live like that."

Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

You are on a hypothetical jury. What evidence would you find compelling? Forensics (science linking the person to the crime), eyewitness testimony, motive? What would you consider circumstantial?

How convinced would you have to be, before voting "guilty"? What would it take, by contrast, to convince you to return a verdict of "not guilty"? If you found yourself between the two, what would you do?

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"I think I'd be more inclined to believe forensics," Joan said. "Eyewitness testimony is really unreliable."

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[therewaslife]

"Every group of evidence could really be subject to human error, some less than others, and I think I'd have to remember that when I saw anything," Bod explained slowly. Anything could be unreliable depending on the person, the day, the situation, and the crime."

Still, Bod knew he'd probably be expected not to discount every piece of evidence. "Science would probably be the hardest to disprove even if the potential is there. Eyewitness testimony might be helpful in the way of giving a sort of personality to the crime. Science can tell you how, the eyewitness can tell you what it was like, if they're a good witness."

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[bitten_notshy]

"It has to be all of a piece," Jack said. "Any one bit can be weak or wrong, but the whole chain needs to add up to point to guilt. But if I had to weight them, I'd give the greatest value to forensics and evidence that can't be disputed."

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[momslilassassin]

"I think it depends who the eyewitness is," Ben said. "If they are trained to observe, it's different than someone who might have been panicking and not paying much attention."

Talk to the TAs - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

If they're here. Guilty or innocent.

Re: Talk to the TAs - JST09

[glacial_queen]

Karla was there and thinking very hard about things. In Kaeleer, they didn't have any codified rules of justice, save Protocol. Would there be fewer abuses if there were? Would her Province and District Queens accept such a thing? Could she really write one, all on her own?

Talk to Alex - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Only ask about Nikki the prostitute if you do not value your life.

Re: Talk to Alex - JST09

[exspeedydotcom]

"Um, Ms. Cabot?" Roy asked.

He wasn't asking about Nikki! He was just making sure she knew she was Ms. Cabot. It was totally different.

OOC - JST09

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

This was one of the easiest fairies I've ever had to pick. Alex believes in Justice. She knows the system is flawed, but it's still something to fight for.

Also, it's cute as hell (♥ + thanks to raspberryturk)

Re: OOC - JST09

[weetuskenraider]

I apologize for Tahiri's absence today, in the interest of me getting to do horrible things to her. :D

. . . okay, not that horrible.