http://glasses-justice.livejournal.com/ ([identity profile] glasses-justice.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] fandomhigh2010-03-09 01:49 pm
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Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #9, Mar 9]

"Justice," Alex began, "is frequently depicted as a pair of balancing scales. If you've been paying attention so far this semester, you probably can see how that would be appropriate. A lot of the fundamentals of justice are, at heart, an elaborate balancing act. When the lines have to be drawn, what do you privilege? Where do you err, in the gray areas? That's something we've been discussing, in one form or another, nearly every week."

"This week, we're going straight to the heart of the matter." Alex pointed to the blackboard, which had a few sentences written on it.

FOURTHLY, all presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously: for the law holds, that it is better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.


"This is known as Blackstone's Formulation," Alex said, "although the principle behind it is much older. Sir John Fortescue said much the same a few centuries earlier. The idea here is that, all else being equal, it is better for a judicial system to acquit ten guilty people than to convict one innocent person.

"Obviously, the ideal would be to convict every guilty person and to never convict anyone who was innocent. But that's not realistic. Some accused will confess. Some crimes, you will have clear and undeniable evidence. The rest of the time? You have a great deal of evidence pointing towards that person, while he or she swears innocence.

"It is each society's decision, what to prioritize in that moment. Not all follow Blackstone. Otto von Bismarck said the opposite: better to imprison ten innocent men than to let one guilty go free. Bismarck's country would presumably have less crime, but I'll say, I still wouldn't want to live there.

"If society decides that it's better to acquit the innocent than convict the guilty, then the burden of proof is on the prosecutors. The government has to prove, within a reasonable doubt, that this person is guilty. Reasonable doubt doesn't mean no doubt at all. If aliens might have abducted this person and replaced him with a body double, that's certainly an alternate theory of the crime, but it's hardly a plausible one."

At least, for places that weren't Fandom.

"No one is found innocent in a court of law: the verdicts are Guilty or Not Guilty, and sometimes the latter means 'we're not sure.' If you're not convinced, as a jury member, you should vote Not Guilty. Put the burden on the prosecutors. Make us do our job.

"By contrast, if you're living in Bismarck's world, you have to prove your innocence, if you're charged with a crime. Proving a negative is difficult. Find a good alibi, find a good attorney, and good luck."

Alex clasped her hands together, in front of herself. "So. That's this week's topic. Reasonable doubt, and balancing those scales. Do you follow Blackstone, or Bismarck?"
bitten_notshy: ([neu] considering this)

Re: Sign In! - JST09

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-03-09 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack Priest
endsthegame: (savior)

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[personal profile] endsthegame 2010-03-09 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Andrew Wiggin
therewaslife: (↓ | the better man)

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[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-03-09 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Nobody Owens

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[identity profile] joan-notjane.livejournal.com 2010-03-09 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Joan Girardi

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[identity profile] rocksthescarf.livejournal.com 2010-03-09 07:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Chuck Bass
therewaslife: (→ | interested in you)

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-03-09 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
"I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in a society that believes mostly in Blackstone's theory," said Bod after some time to think about it. "On the comfort level, it'd be a lot easier to want to be an active member of society if I wasn't worried that a small misstep or something someone perceives as a crime gets me locked up when it wouldn't otherwise be deserved."

In Bismarck's society, Bod was pretty sure he'd already be in jail. "Bismarck's society almost sounds like martial law where anyone can be locked up if someone in a position of authority thinks you're in the wrong. Twenty people are locked up due to possibly being a threat when no one really is. It'd be overbearing and difficult."

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[identity profile] joan-notjane.livejournal.com 2010-03-09 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Joan took some notes, though she wasn't sure how she felt about the sentence on the board.

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[identity profile] joan-notjane.livejournal.com 2010-03-09 07:39 pm (UTC)(link)
"I think I'd be more inclined to believe forensics," Joan said. "Eyewitness testimony is really unreliable."
therewaslife: (→ | kinda thuggy)

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[personal profile] therewaslife 2010-03-09 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
"Every group of evidence could really be subject to human error, some less than others, and I think I'd have to remember that when I saw anything," Bod explained slowly. Anything could be unreliable depending on the person, the day, the situation, and the crime."

Still, Bod knew he'd probably be expected not to discount every piece of evidence. "Science would probably be the hardest to disprove even if the potential is there. Eyewitness testimony might be helpful in the way of giving a sort of personality to the crime. Science can tell you how, the eyewitness can tell you what it was like, if they're a good witness."
likes_scoundrels: (Feeling playful)

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[personal profile] likes_scoundrels 2010-03-09 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Leia Organa
momslilassassin: ([neg] it's on the book cover)

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[personal profile] momslilassassin 2010-03-09 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Ben Skywalker
momslilassassin: ([neg] I have a hood and am looking down)

Re: Discussion - Blackstone v. Bismarck - JST09

[personal profile] momslilassassin 2010-03-09 08:10 pm (UTC)(link)
"I've lived in both," Ben said quietly. "I prefer Blackstone. Bismarck is oppressive."
bitten_notshy: ([neu] smarter than he lets on)

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[personal profile] bitten_notshy 2010-03-09 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
"It has to be all of a piece," Jack said. "Any one bit can be weak or wrong, but the whole chain needs to add up to point to guilt. But if I had to weight them, I'd give the greatest value to forensics and evidence that can't be disputed."
momslilassassin: ([neg] sad panda)

Re: Discussion - Reasonable Doubt - JST09

[personal profile] momslilassassin 2010-03-09 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
"I think it depends who the eyewitness is," Ben said. "If they are trained to observe, it's different than someone who might have been panicking and not paying much attention."
exspeedydotcom: (I am begging you)

Re: Sign In! - JST09

[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-03-09 08:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Roy Harper
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[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-03-09 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Roy Harper
exspeedydotcom: (doing homework)

Re: During the Lecture - JST09

[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-03-09 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Roy took notes, and thought about how glad he was that Ms. Cabot seemed to not be crazy any more.
exspeedydotcom: (eyebrows are doubtful)

Re: Talk to Alex - JST09

[personal profile] exspeedydotcom 2010-03-09 08:49 pm (UTC)(link)
"Um, Ms. Cabot?" Roy asked.

He wasn't asking about Nikki! He was just making sure she knew she was Ms. Cabot. It was totally different.

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