Build Your Own Philosophy, Period 2, 2/1/10

[tyler_gone]

The board read:

It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both. -- Niccolo Machiavelli

"Today," Tyler announced from his perch atop his desk as soon as class was assembled and the door was closed, "we're skipping ahead a thousand years. We're talking about Machiavelli." Two books -- a text and an accompanying set of SparkNotes -- were already on each desk. "He was writing in 1513, telling local rulers what they needed to do to keep power. He was also trying to tell people who wanted power how they could get it. This is one of the first books about philosophy to be flat-out practical. Machiavelli isn't looking at what God wants you to do -- he's looking at what you need to do. He's looking at how to be a wolf and not just another dog."

Yeah, Tyler had an ideological crush.

"We'll be spending a couple weeks on this book, so please take it home. Look at it. Read it. Sleep with it under your pillow if you want. Today, we're starting with one question: Do you want people to fear you, or to love you?" He paused and paced across the classroom, wishing for a cool swirly cape like Anakin's.

"We all want to be loved. We're all designed to crave love. To bask in it from the cradle, if we're lucky. Roll around in it. But people will do things out of fear that you could not get them to do out of love. So -- if you want power -- fear's the blunt instrument. Cruelty, even, if you're trying to keep a large group of people like an army on the same path. At least, if you believe Machiavelli."

"What I'm asking today is what you think. Imagine you're in charge of a country. Do you want the people to fear you first, or to love you first?" He grinned. "Automatic detention to anyone who says both. I'm not in a mood for having it both ways."

He meant that, too.

Comments

Sign In [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

In a Machiavellian manner.

Re: Sign In [2/01]

[pastmewrong.livejournal.com]

Effy Stonem

Re: Sign In [2/01]

[not_tylerdurden]

Calvin

General Class Stuff [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

Listen to the lecture. Wish Tyler had a cool swirly cape like Anakin's.

Re: General Class Stuff [2/01]

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan listened to the lecture and glanced at the back cover of the book. For some reason, this topic was making her mildly uncomfortable.

Re: General Class Stuff [2/01]

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

Liir considered the text, and the teacher's comments. The whole question really was ridiculously relevant to him as few classes were. Feared or loved?

The problem was that Liir couldn't really see anyone doing either.

He wasn't an intimidating person by nature. Oh he could storm and scowl and look a bit grumpy, but he didn't have a Presence that people would respond to like that. He could grump and growl all he wanted and the main result would be that he was grumpy.

On the other hand, love was almost entirely out of the question. While he had accepted that some might love him, he was well aware that most did not. Most might pity him, or find him tolerable, but love, and the kind of love which he knew might be useful politically, was utterly beyond him.

...which gave him rather a lot to think on, all said.

Re: General Class Stuff [2/01]

[not_tylerdurden]

Calvin doodled on his notepad as he listened with one ear.

He already knew how completely unintimidating he was, so it wasn't like he had to think that hard about his answer.

Discussion [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

Congratulations -- you're in charge of a country. Both are important, but would you prefer the people view you with love first, or with fear first?

Ping off each other and all of that.

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[intraspective]

"Love," Ino said promptly. "If you can get it and keep it then you've got their loyalty forever. People'll do anything for love, out of love, to protect what it is that they love and it's less likely that they'll betray you if you're loved than if you're feared."

This was not to say that she thought controlling someone by fear was a bad idea, exactly, but it wasn't her first choice either.

"Feared rulers got to watch their back from the inside and outside. Loved ones can expect most of the threats to come from the outside only." Most. Not all.

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

"What happens if you lose the love?" Tyler asked. "You can keep people afraid by force. You can't force people to keep loving you. You screw up, and -- bam. Threats from the inside again."

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"Love," Joan said. "Because love implies they respect me and that means I'm probably a good ruler. I think people who rule through fear are bullies who only get where they are because they're stronger than the people around them."

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

Tyler raised his eyebrows. "Isn't that the definition of a ruler?" he asked. "Someone who's stronger than the people around him or her?"

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[onlysmokesnics.livejournal.com]

Hayley just shook her head. "I'd want them to love me," she said. "But I bet... most likely, people would end up scared, if I was in charge of a country. I'm not sure I'd be good at it."

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

"So you'd shoot for love and end up at fear," Tyler nodded slowly. "What would you do with the fear once you had it?"

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

Liir, of course, had to be difficult.

"Personally, I'd want them to think I'm competent.

"Competency doesn't come with the whims of love or fear. A man can love you one day and scorn you the next; as for fear, it's finite. People mostly want their lives to go on the same way as they did the day before, however, and a competent man can do that for them.

"They might occasionally curse a competent man for a mistake, but never overthrow him unless that mistake is utterly unforgivable... and then, how competent was he really? A competent man does not rely on his people's love or fear to drive them in battle (or otherwise, really), but their own self-interest... and is there any stronger drive in a thinking creature of any stripe?"

Someone had 'budding bureaucrat' tattooed on him since birth *cough*

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

Tyler shot a distinctly skeptical look his way. "Very good, Liir," he said, slightly patronizing. "No argument, competent trumps. But if we take it out of play and the choice is love or fear ....?"

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[not_tylerdurden]

"I'd go with loved," Calvin said. "It's not like a cult of personality can't lead people into doing horrible things just as well as fear does."

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[trigons_child]

"To be loved is much better," Raven said. "'Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.' I would not want my people to suffer." Yes, she was totally quoting what she'd learned from Anakin, want to make something of it?

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[nodaintyflower.livejournal.com]

"I'd want to be loved first," Mulan said thoughtfully. "If I am loved, the people of my country will then learn to respect me as their leader. And possibly fear me later on."

Re: Discussion [2/01]

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Viscerally, I don't like the idea of being feared," Dinah said slowly. "Logically, too, I think love might be more useful. Fear makes factions, people afraid to bring up real problems that need addressing, unwilling to believe you when you tell them your next course of action. You would have to be, oh, insanely powerful or smart, to be able to rule through fear. Ruling through love, because people think you deserve the job, can do it well-- that cuts down on half your work, so you can protect them or figure out new ways to feed them."

Talk to the TAs [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

Once the ping in!

Re: Talk to the TAs [2/01]

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan was around if anyone wanted to talk.

Re: Talk to the TAs [2/01]

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

Liir was around as well. Whether you feared or loved him, however, he left up to the student.

Talk to Tyler [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

He is there!

OOC [2/01]

[tyler_gone]

I am running late for work!