Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #3, Jan 19]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, "we're going to be discussing something known as mens rea. In Latin, the full expression is actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea -- the act does not make one guilty unless the mind is also guilty. In other words, we're going to talk about a specific kind of intent."

This was more a procedural issue than last week's death penalty discussion, but Alex hoped the students would listen further than 'oh, no, Latin' and realize the issue was actually fairly intriguing. At least, if you were a law geek, anyway.

"What does it mean to have a guilty mind?" Alex lifted her shoulders. "In most cases, it means the ability to form the intent to commit those actions. If a toddler is playing with a loaded gun, and shoots a sibling, the situation is a grim tragedy. If a sixteen-year-old does the same thing, it would still be a tragedy, but many would consider the teenager old enough to be held accountable. The teenager should know that guns are dangerous, while the toddler would not comprehend that.

"Age isn't the only qualifier. A man in the grip of paranoid schizophrenic delusions shoots his neighbor because he thinks his neighbor is an alien sent to kill him. Should he be held accountable? Plenty would say no. What if the man had previously undergone treatment for schizophrenia, but elected to stop taking his medication? It could be assumed then that his lucid self knew the risks and chose to accept them. The matter becomes murkier if the schizophrenic was never previously violent, and had no reason to think he would be this time.

"Mental capability can also refer to someone with certain disabilities. A severely retarded woman playing with a loaded gun may not be any more capable of understanding the possible consequences than the toddler above. So what about someone mildly retarded? What about a person who is less intelligent than the average? If a man receives a head injury and loses the ability to control his impulses, then robs a liquor store at gunpoint, what sort of punishment should he receive?

"If a woman drives herself home from a bar, drunk, and runs over a pedestrian, few would argue that she should be found guilty of a crime. What if her drink was 'spiked,' and she did not know that she was intoxicated? What if she was drinking at home, but suddenly needed to drive a friend to the hospital? Her intentions matter.

"Mens rea, in its essence, is asking us who was able to form the intent to cause harm -- or chose to act in a way that showed a clear indifference to the result of those actions. So let's talk about intent."

Comments

Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

What does it mean to have the mentality to commit a crime? Can you think of other circumstances that might qualify, to either remove or lessen the charges? If someone willingly enters an altered state (ceases medication, drinks heavily) should she be held fully accountable for her actions in that state? If a fifteen-year-old shoots a friend while arguing, should he receive the same punishment as an adult? What about a ten-year-old? Five?

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[momslilassassin]

"I think it depends on how the fifteen year old has been trained," Ben said. "I've been handling a weapon since I was nine years old and know exactly what it can do. Heck, I knew at five."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"You knew, but I think the law would say you couldn't comprehend the severity of your actions," Alex explained. "A five-year-old might think that a gun could make bad people go away, not realize that they're taking a life. You're arguing for a case-by-case evaluation?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glacial_queen]

Even as she began talking, Karla knew that it would probably be better for her to just keep her damn mouth shut. This was probably going to turn into one of those 'Karla's world is crazy' things that had been happening so often.

But when had she ever let her better judgment keep her quiet?

"There are several different scenarios back home when one's mentality prevents them from being held accountable for their actions," Karla said slowly. And kind of quietly. "The first and most obvious is when the person is mad, as you've said. Then there's rut. The other major scenario is when someone rises to the killing edge. The most important function of Protocol exists to prevent pushing someone to that point and to teach others how to behave when near someone has gotten there, in order to minimize injury and damage."

And was the main reason murder wasn't illegal.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Is the killing edge unstoppable once it's been reached?" Alex asked. "The person has no control and must kill? Can they affect the target?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[bitten_notshy]

"What puts someone at the killing edge?" Jack asked carefully. He was making a promise that no matter what she said, he would not let himself be irritated or shocked by it. Not enough to show.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Well, around here, possessed or under a spell counts as a mitigating circumstance," Dinah pointed out. "Not having self-control. And to a certain point, yes, if they drank or drugged themselves, then went out in public, they need to take responsibility for that."

She was quiet a minute, considering the second parts of those questions. "For a fifteen-year-old, I think it would vary from case to case. The same way it would for an adult. Ten or five, no. Not around here. They don't understand, and they don't have the self-control when they do understand, and there's no way anyone should let them have access to a gun."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[momslilassassin]

"Is 'around here' Fandom, or your version of planet Earth?" Ben replied. "Because that makes a major difference."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Mitigating meaning the person has diminished responsibility, or are you saying the person has no accountability whatsoever?" Alex asked. "How does someone prove that he or she was under a spell?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

"If someone willingly alters their own state, then yes, they are fully accountable," Aravis replied. "A drunken swordsman is nearly as dangerous as a sober one, for what he lacks in finesse he makes up in impulse. Children should not be tried the same as adults, though, no. Teenagers, I think, are a grey area. I understand that at the age of eighteen, I am now legally viewed as an adult in this country, but my older brother went off to war when he was only sixteen. If we can send our children to battle, they are adults. But a child of five scarcely knows his alphabet, much less how to willingly commit murder."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"That's an interesting point of contention in some circles," Alex noted. "We send soldiers to war at eighteen, here, but we consider teenagers children in other ways. They can't drink alcohol until twenty-one. They can't rent a car until twenty-five. We let those teenagers kill and die for us, but we don't trust them with agency."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[therewaslife]

"I wonder if the circumstance of not knowing the justice system would qualify for lessening the punishment for a crime," said Bod thoughtfully. He knew, even though he was from Earth, he'd been so far removed from this world that he knew he had a lot to learn about this justice system.

"This island, for instance, is a prime example. There are people from other planets and other worlds who probably have completely different ways of governing. When they come here, they might think challenging someone to a duel or taking food when it's needed is perfectly acceptable. Shouldn't the lack of knowledge be taken into account? Of course, time should be a factor, or even a restriction, because I shouldn't be allowed to use that excuse after years and years on a world different from my home.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"That's an interesting point," Alex said. "Legally, the idea is that ignorance of the law is no defense. You can't escape a murder charge because you didn't know murder was illegal. But in practice -- someone new to the area, breaks the law in a minor way, expresses remorse and insists he had no idea what he did was illegal?" She shrugged. "Most cops would let that go with a slap on the wrist."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[bigbadgunn.livejournal.com]

"Speaking as probably the only career criminal here," Gunn said leaning back in his chair "I only stole for food and shelter. No one else was handing out job skills where I lived and since the cops never came to my neighborhood it wasn't much of a problem. As for the mentality... well, hell, if I need something I go get it. I'm looking out for me and my crew that way. Does that mean I get a walk just because I'm making sure my friends get fed?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"No, it doesn't," Alex said. "A lack of remorse isn't the same thing as an inability to understand that you've committed a crime. You understand it, you just don't care. You have your reasons for not caring, I admit, but that doesn't excuse it. A sociopath could say that he saw nothing wrong with murdering children, but we don't let him off because he doesn't think it should be a crime."

It was, in fact, impossible for Alex to stop thinking like a prosecutor.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[shyest-eyes.livejournal.com]

Oh. Ow.

Hinata's wince was barely more than the slightest of twitches but it was there nonetheless.

"It would depend on the world," she said softly. "Mine h-has sent children as young as six to the front lines. I would say that they knew what they were about and if th-they committed a crime outside of a mission, that they would have to be held as accountable for their actions as an adult."

The desk was very interesting to stare at. Really.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Alex noticed the wince, and wondered if it was too sensitive a spot to inquire further.

"There are countries in this world that use child soldiers as well," Alex said, gently. "In many cases, it's seen as a tragedy. Children may be able to comprehend that weapons kill, and that killing is necessary, but it's unlikely that they have chosen that path of their own free will, which is another consideration."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[exspeedydotcom]

Roy got the feeling some of the people making declarations about people in altered mental states only knew about that in an academic manner, but he wasn't about to say that in class. Addiction: tricky.

So he went for the other part. He'd been pointing a projectile weapon at people at ten and fifteen, so he thought he was actually kind of well-qualified to talk about this, too. "I think a fifteen-year-old, unless there's something wrong with them, they know what 'life' and 'death' are, and they should get that a gun can kill someone. I can see a fifteen-year-old not knowing where to aim to wound instead of kill," even though Roy sort of saw the world in terms of 'where to aim' so it was kind of hard for him to bend his brain toward, "but I think at that age if you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you have to accept the consequences. Ten, harder to say, it's more borderline. Kids develop at different speeds; ten can go either way. Five--I mean, I'm sure there are five-year-olds out there who would understand what they were doing, but...not most of them."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"So should a fifteen-year-old who has committed murder be tried as an adult?" Alex asked. "Subject to punishments such as life in prison, or the death penalty?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[bitten_notshy]

"I think the mentality to commit a crime means knowing what's right and what's wrong, and knowing what effects your actions will have," Jack offered thoughtfully. He knew that what he was saying was obvious; he just liked to start by defining his terms. "If the altered state is entered willingly -- I don't know that it's an excuse, but it's something to take into account. Every case is different. Someone who's never been drunk before, for example, might be less culpable than someone who drinks heavily and knows the effects."

He paused before answering the question about children. "At fifteen, yes. You know what you're doing. At ten, I'd say it depends on the child and how he or she was raised. At five, no."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Mitigation doesn't necessarily mean a full exemption," Alex explained. "You could find someone responsible and bring a lesser charge, based on the particular circumstances. Useful for situations where the person acted in a negligent manner, but not in actual bad faith."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"What about hypnosis, or mind control?" Kurt asked. "I mean, it means you're not responsible, but how do you PROVE it to people who might not believe you?"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"That's a very good question," Alex said. "Is there typically proof of either condition? In my experience as a prosecutor, I was in a world where neither would make for a compelling defense. If it's common in your world, I'm curious how people can discern that such a thing has happened."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[heromaniac]

"If someone else is controlling you, like possession or something? Then you aren't really responsible, but you should see if there is anything you can do to repair the damage, because people are going to think that you did it, because it looked like you." Momoko frowned. "But then some people in my world turn into monsters and do stuff that they don't get punished for when they turn back, and I think that's the right thing to do."

"But guns are dangerous! Why would a fifteen year old have a gun? How did they get it and why? I mean, if he has it because he is going to shoot someone, then yes, he should totally be punished!"

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[endsthegame]

"It can be difficult to comprehend your actions at five or six."

That last qualifier was for a reason.

"But still something you sense. Something you'll have to pay for in your life in some way. You are fully accountable, although persecution to the point of incarceration isn't anything a society should wish for for a kid that age."

Ender's own thoughts were jumbled on the subject, mainly because they'd been stuck on a loop in his head for a long, long time.