Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #3, Jan 19]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"This week," Alex said, "we're going to be discussing something known as mens rea. In Latin, the full expression is actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea -- the act does not make one guilty unless the mind is also guilty. In other words, we're going to talk about a specific kind of intent."

This was more a procedural issue than last week's death penalty discussion, but Alex hoped the students would listen further than 'oh, no, Latin' and realize the issue was actually fairly intriguing. At least, if you were a law geek, anyway.

"What does it mean to have a guilty mind?" Alex lifted her shoulders. "In most cases, it means the ability to form the intent to commit those actions. If a toddler is playing with a loaded gun, and shoots a sibling, the situation is a grim tragedy. If a sixteen-year-old does the same thing, it would still be a tragedy, but many would consider the teenager old enough to be held accountable. The teenager should know that guns are dangerous, while the toddler would not comprehend that.

"Age isn't the only qualifier. A man in the grip of paranoid schizophrenic delusions shoots his neighbor because he thinks his neighbor is an alien sent to kill him. Should he be held accountable? Plenty would say no. What if the man had previously undergone treatment for schizophrenia, but elected to stop taking his medication? It could be assumed then that his lucid self knew the risks and chose to accept them. The matter becomes murkier if the schizophrenic was never previously violent, and had no reason to think he would be this time.

"Mental capability can also refer to someone with certain disabilities. A severely retarded woman playing with a loaded gun may not be any more capable of understanding the possible consequences than the toddler above. So what about someone mildly retarded? What about a person who is less intelligent than the average? If a man receives a head injury and loses the ability to control his impulses, then robs a liquor store at gunpoint, what sort of punishment should he receive?

"If a woman drives herself home from a bar, drunk, and runs over a pedestrian, few would argue that she should be found guilty of a crime. What if her drink was 'spiked,' and she did not know that she was intoxicated? What if she was drinking at home, but suddenly needed to drive a friend to the hospital? Her intentions matter.

"Mens rea, in its essence, is asking us who was able to form the intent to cause harm -- or chose to act in a way that showed a clear indifference to the result of those actions. So let's talk about intent."

Comments

Sign In - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Like you are too dumb to be held accountable for your actions in class today.

Re: Sign In - JST03

[momslilassassin]

Ben Skywalker

Re: Sign In - JST03

[glacial_queen]

Karla

During the Lecture - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Talk, pass notes, take notes, play the fiddle.*

*Fiddle-playing not recommended.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[momslilassassin]

Ben was so caught up in the lecture that he almost forgot to take notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[glacial_queen]

Karla sadly put her fiddle away took notes, occasionally chewing on the end of her pen as she thought.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

Dinah was taking notes, in particular that legal phrase, and started making a little Chart of Accountability in the middle of it.

Age, Sanity, Awareness, Intent.... Hunh. Now. Where would Azula fall on those scales? Hmph.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck wasn't exactly taking notes but he was paying attention for once.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[therewaslife]

Bod didn't want to take too many notes and miss something in the lecture. So, he jotted down a few keywords and made sure he knew what they were associated with before mostly paying attention.

Intent. He hadn't ever wondered about the man Jack's intent but he was wondering now how it would fit into this justice system.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[shyest-eyes.livejournal.com]

Hinata wasn't taking notes but she was listening intently, arms neatly folded on her desk as she considered what was being said.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[bitten_notshy]

Jack's pen flew as he took notes. In his time, the M'Naghten rules were in play, but his world wasn't inclined to pardon people for reasons beyond complete insanity.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[not-jaded-yet.livejournal.com]

Jennifer was taking lots of notes. This was definitely the sort of thing lawyers had a lot of influence on a jury about.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan was totally playing the fiddle. Except for how she wasn't and was actually taking notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt took notes, but not very well, because he kept getting distracted by the subject material and trying to think it all through.

Re: During the Lecture - JST03

[heromaniac]

Momoko's notes started out strong! And then Professor Cabot started speaking Latin and totally lost her for a few minutes. She had not anticipated needing a third language to be a crimefighter.

But the lecture turned out to be that something that Momoko really understood - intent was kind of a huge part of what she believed in.

Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

What does it mean to have the mentality to commit a crime? Can you think of other circumstances that might qualify, to either remove or lessen the charges? If someone willingly enters an altered state (ceases medication, drinks heavily) should she be held fully accountable for her actions in that state? If a fifteen-year-old shoots a friend while arguing, should he receive the same punishment as an adult? What about a ten-year-old? Five?

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[momslilassassin]

"I think it depends on how the fifteen year old has been trained," Ben said. "I've been handling a weapon since I was nine years old and know exactly what it can do. Heck, I knew at five."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[glacial_queen]

Even as she began talking, Karla knew that it would probably be better for her to just keep her damn mouth shut. This was probably going to turn into one of those 'Karla's world is crazy' things that had been happening so often.

But when had she ever let her better judgment keep her quiet?

"There are several different scenarios back home when one's mentality prevents them from being held accountable for their actions," Karla said slowly. And kind of quietly. "The first and most obvious is when the person is mad, as you've said. Then there's rut. The other major scenario is when someone rises to the killing edge. The most important function of Protocol exists to prevent pushing someone to that point and to teach others how to behave when near someone has gotten there, in order to minimize injury and damage."

And was the main reason murder wasn't illegal.

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"Well, around here, possessed or under a spell counts as a mitigating circumstance," Dinah pointed out. "Not having self-control. And to a certain point, yes, if they drank or drugged themselves, then went out in public, they need to take responsibility for that."

She was quiet a minute, considering the second parts of those questions. "For a fifteen-year-old, I think it would vary from case to case. The same way it would for an adult. Ten or five, no. Not around here. They don't understand, and they don't have the self-control when they do understand, and there's no way anyone should let them have access to a gun."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

"If someone willingly alters their own state, then yes, they are fully accountable," Aravis replied. "A drunken swordsman is nearly as dangerous as a sober one, for what he lacks in finesse he makes up in impulse. Children should not be tried the same as adults, though, no. Teenagers, I think, are a grey area. I understand that at the age of eighteen, I am now legally viewed as an adult in this country, but my older brother went off to war when he was only sixteen. If we can send our children to battle, they are adults. But a child of five scarcely knows his alphabet, much less how to willingly commit murder."

Re: Discussion: Mens Rea - JST03

[therewaslife]

"I wonder if the circumstance of not knowing the justice system would qualify for lessening the punishment for a crime," said Bod thoughtfully. He knew, even though he was from Earth, he'd been so far removed from this world that he knew he had a lot to learn about this justice system.

"This island, for instance, is a prime example. There are people from other planets and other worlds who probably have completely different ways of governing. When they come here, they might think challenging someone to a duel or taking food when it's needed is perfectly acceptable. Shouldn't the lack of knowledge be taken into account? Of course, time should be a factor, or even a restriction, because I shouldn't be allowed to use that excuse after years and years on a world different from my home.

Case Study: Honor - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

A man believes his sister has dishonored the family, and kills her, to restore that honor. The defense claims he lacks the mens rea to commit a crime, because he believes what he is doing is right and virtuous, that he is saving his family from her dishonor. Is this a legitimate application of mens rea? Should the defendant be found not guilty, or given a lesser sentence? How do you counter this argument (or support it, if you agree)?

Re: Case Study: Honor - JST03

[momslilassassin]

Ben wondered darkly if what Jaina had done to Jacen would fall under the same sort of category.

"Does the legal system he's being tried under allow for honor killings?" Ben asked.

Talk to the TAs - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

They are presumably here.

Re: Talk to the TAs - JST03

[glacial_queen]

Karla was here and, as usual, was endlessly fascinated by the topic.

Talk to Alex - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

She's definitely here.

OOC - JST03

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Very sorry about late class. I had an appointment at 2 pm and it's usually a quick visit, so I thought I'd be back with time to spare. I did not realize I'd be spending over an hour in the waiting room. Oops.

The case study is from her second episode of SVU. Because hey, why not?