Ethics [Thursday, September 17, 1st period]

[sith_happened]

When the students came into the classroom, they found Anakin scrawling a quote on the board:

“In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes.”--John Ruskin

He turned around with an eyebrow raised. "Is Master Ruskin correct? How about Master Lao Tzu? He said: 'Pride attaches undue importance to the superiority of one's status in the eyes of others; and shame is fear of humiliation at one's inferior status in the estimation of others. When one sets his heart on being highly esteemed, and achieves such rating, then he is automatically involved in fear of losing his status.'"

He began pacing around the room. "Does pride always go before a fall? Do we have to be humiliated before we can learn? How high do the stakes have to be before we'll admit we've made a mistake, or have been fooled?"

"In order to deal ethically with other people, we need to acknowledge this very human flaw in ourselves and others. We want to believe that we are different, better than everyone around us." His gaze sharpened. "We're not. Everything is connected. You, me, the desks, the rocks outside, the deer in the preserve, the annoying person in the dorm who plays their music too loudly. Take pride in being yourself, certainly," he concluded. "But don't for a moment believe that who you are makes you more than the person sitting next to you. Because that kind of pride is where you make your first mistake."

Comments

Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

"Does pride always go before a fall? Do we have to be humiliated before we can learn? How high do the stakes have to be before we'll admit we've made a mistake, or have been fooled?"

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[gods-gymnast.livejournal.com]

"Depends on if it would hurt someone else to not admit to it, or if it would hurt only me," Maron said, fussing with a bit of her hair. "My pride isn't as important as someone else pain."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

"But if it only hurts you, you wouldn't admit to it?" Anakin asked.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[thatsamilkshake]

Francine sighed. "If we have to be humiliated before we can learn, I should have a PhD by now."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[life_inshadow]

That got Tara's quick, amused smile. "That would be nice," she offered. "If, if you got a prize for making really stupid mistakes no one else would make. Or jokes no one else got."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[onlysmokesnics.livejournal.com]

Hayley thought for a minute.

"I think pride can lead you to being vulnerable," she said, a rare moment of insight. "It doesn't really mean you're gonna fall, but. If you're overconfident, someone might surprise ya."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

Azula turned a surprised glance at Hayley... that was... surprisingly insightful. And not so hard to hear.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

Anakin nodded. "Good. And then what happens if you're surprised? Do you think the person would waste time sulking about being surprised, or actually address the overconfidence problem?"

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[findingelena.livejournal.com]

Elena nodded, impressed that someone thought to put it in terms of tactics.

"Pride is a blind spot," she agreed. "And any good enemy can find a way to exploit that."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[longislandiceme]

Bobby shrugged. "I think the stakes are different for everyone," he said. "I'm not the smartest person ever, and I know that, so it's pretty easy for me to admit that oops, I was wrong. If you're, like, some super-genius or even someone who just thinks they're a genius, it can be a lot harder to admit to being wrong. Because there's all that outside pressure to be right all the time, you know?"

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

She wasn't trying to listen but it was hard not to. Azula turned her head away and frowned.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

Anakin smiled. "Very good. Do you think those sorts of people are the ones who tend to require the more painful lesson?"

Like, say, Anakin would. Hypothetically.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[trigons_child]

"I do not think humiliation is required to learn," Raven said, frowning slightly. "It is a different way of learning, though not one I would prefer."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

"What would you prefer?" Anakin asked.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[azuldragon.livejournal.com]

This was one lecture Azula didn't want to be any part of. It was hitting wounds that were still far too raw.

Pride wasn't her downfall. Paranoia, hallucinations... those were the cause not pride.

Azula opened her mouth to speak but she couldn't bring herself to speak.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

Anakin's eyebrow cocked up. "Nothing to add today, Azula?"

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[thismaskiwear.livejournal.com]

Katchoo shrugged. "Some people have a fall into a bottomless frikkin' pit coming to 'em for the amount of pride they have, and they pay gravity to fall asleep on the job."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[onlysmokesnics.livejournal.com]

"You can pay gravity?" Hayley said, totally missing the point.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[officetightass]

"I think maybe people with pride just have a better ability to tell when they've made a mistake, more than say, people who don't take pride in anything and make me fix all those mistakes and go on to make them some more," Angela said.

Welcome to Angela's future.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[sith_happened]

"Where do you think the line between pride in being good at something and the unhealthy belief that you are clearly better than everyone else lies?" Anakin asked.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[findingelena.livejournal.com]

"It might be two separate issues," Elena said, considering the matter. "People who take no pride in their work might make the same clueless mistakes, over and over again. Or, worse, not care that they have made any. But people with too much pride might make mistakes caused by overconfidence. It's too easy to fall into a false sense of security."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[see-beyond.livejournal.com]

Jonas shifted uncomfortably especially in light of the last question. He'd spent thirteen years being fooled, hadn't he?

"I don't know," Jonas admitted honestly. "Pride, that sort of thing, it wasn't...an issue where I came from. No one thought they were better then the other."

Because it wasn't allowed. Admitting that out loud, admitting you were better just wasn't done.

"So, there was no humiliation and no falling," he said, casting his eyes down. "Even if there's mistakes made, they're immediately rectified and hardly ever due to something like pride."

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[guardianborn.livejournal.com]

"It's kinda - I dunno - too easy to say 'pride goes before a fall,'" Rose tried to work out the thoughts in her head. "Cause then every time someone screws up, it's all 'oh, she was prideful' and it's over."

Which wasn't really the point, no.

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[abetterthief.livejournal.com]

Parker really wasn't quite grasping what was being talked about here. "If something's true, I'm not sure why believing it could lead to a fall. I'm a great thief; should I pretend I'm not because that's thinking I'm better than others? Even though I am?"

Re: Answer the questions [Ethics 9/17]

[findingelena.livejournal.com]

"I think ... it depends on what it is we're trying to learn," Elena said, weighing the words as she measured them out. "And how tangled your ego is, in being right on the matter. Some matters, it's easier to shrug it off, and say you were wrong, where other times ... you're going to cling to your misconceptions until you're blue in the face. So reality has to get bigger and louder and slap you into submission."