fandomhigh | Destiny & Free Will, Week IV [Monday, Period 4]

Ghanima had ~~handwavily~~ sent out a notice to meet down by the pond again, since it seemed almost criminal to have class indoors during the summer.

"Good afternoon!" she said cheerily. "Hopefully you all aren't too tired from your move back to the dorms, as we have lots to discuss today."

"The question of free will is if, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions. Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic. Sounds fun, hrm?"

"The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In the ethical sense, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. And last, but far from least, in the scientific arena it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. Needless to say, the question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought."

"Society generally holds people responsible for their actions, if law and order prevail, and will say that they deserve praise or blame for what they do." Ghanima shook her head, mouth pinched in distaste. "However, many believe that moral responsibility requires free will. If you have no free will, then how can you be held responsible for anything? Thus, another important issue in the debate on free will is whether individuals are ever morally responsible for their actions—and, if so, in what sense."

"There is an example that those of you native to this planet and era may be familiar with," she said, walking forward to being writing on the board. "St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans addresses the question of moral responsibility as follows: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" If you follow Paul's line of reasoning, individuals can still be dishonoured for their acts even though those acts were ultimately completely determined by God."

"Of course, no matter the rules one chooses to abide by, there are almost always exceptions," Ghanima stated. "One exception to the assumption that moral culpability lies in either individual character or freely willed acts is in cases where the insanity defense—or its corollary, diminished responsibility—can be used to argue that a guilty deed was not the product of a guilty mind. In such cases, the legal systems of most Western societies assume that the person is in some way not at fault, because his actions were a consequence of abnormal brain functions."

"Now, then, let's ponder." Ghanima leaned against the wall to survey the room. "Moral responsibility, madness, and free will. Go."

[OCD UP]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If we assume destiny to be real, can people ever be held accountable for their actions? Why or why not?

[OOC: As will all class discussions, feel free to ping to anyone anywhere anywhen!]

"Destiny or not," Savannah said softly. "You should still be held accountable for your actions. Having a destiny doesn't mean that you should have free reign to terrorize and bully people on the way to that destiny."

Raven nodded. "A destiny does not control every single action. What you do along the way may make a difference."

Shilo nodded. "Just because a child is born to a murderer, does not mean that the baby will grow up to be a murderer as well." Because that ~~wasn't part of a song in Repo!~~ didn't hit too close to home at all. "It's all nature versus nurture, I suppose."

Savannah nodded. "And those actions can decide how or why your destiny happens. There are always choices, no matter what you think your destiny means or is asking of you."

"Do you think it's possible to avoid or change you destiny by certain actions or inactions?" Karla asked.

Savannah nodded. "I do," she said quietly.

Yes, she believed quite firmly in this and had her reasons.

At this, Karla smiled. "So do I."

Savannah gave her a relieved smile.

Karla shot Raven a smile. "I agree. What you do along the way may even change your destiny. I've always felt that seeing the future is seeing the future as it is now. But every action you take can change that. Some futures may be harder to change than others, but there is nothing is set in stone until it happens. And with this place, I'm not willing to say that that's a certainty."

Raven smiled back at Karla. "Not set in stone, yes," she said, nodding in agreement. She had to believe that.

"As long as you're smart, and careful, and try the best you can to muddle through, you should be all right. It's when you start taking the easy route, or stop caring, or stop worrying about the consequences, that's where true accountability begins."

"Destiny is something you must do. How you accomplish it, I imagine, is up to you. Which leaves the accountability of an individual quite intact, I should think."

"I agree completely."

Francine... was so not in the mood for thinking. But -- in what would seem rather an abrupt about-face from her defense of Oedipus for anybody who hadn't spent the last week with her, she muttered, "What if everybody's crazy. Kind of sucks as an excuse then, doesn't it."

Ben nodded. "And there are different kinds of crazy."

Jacen. "You can be doing the unthinkable and still think you are in the right, and that everyone else has lost their minds. Whose definition do you use? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't know normal if I saw it."

"What about other issues of accountability?" George asked. "Like, what you were saying with the insanity defense and diminished responsibility. I don't think... Even if there's some reason that you're not in control, I think you need to take responsibility for what you do.

"Whether it's destiny or... something else," he added, "if you're not going to be in control, I think you need to live your life in such a way that you limit the risk to people around you. Especially if you know when you're liable to be out of control."

"It's one thing if you know you're about to be out of control," Karla said. "But if you're mad, you don't necessarily know that, do you? If you were lucid enough for that, you wouldn't be completely mad."

"It doesn't matter if they logically can," Agnes pointed out. "People are still going to hold them responsible, regardless."

"If it was their destiny to say, set fire to a building, then it's probably their destiny to be punished, if they get caught."

Destiny & Free Will, Week IV [Monday, Period 4]

Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

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Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

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Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility