Destiny & Free Will, Week IV [Monday, Period 4]

[atreideslioness]

Ghanima had handwavily sent out a notice to meet down by the pond again, since it seemed almost criminal to have class indoors during the summer.

"Good afternoon!" she said cheerily. "Hopefully you all aren't too tired from your move back to the dorms, as we have lots to discuss today."

"The question of free will is if, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions and decisions.  Addressing this question requires understanding the relationship between freedom and cause, and determining whether the laws of nature are causally deterministic. Sounds fun, hrm?"  

"The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In the ethical sense, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. And last, but far from least, in the scientific arena it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. Needless to say, the question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought."

"Society generally holds people responsible for their actions, if law and order prevail, and will say that they deserve praise or blame for what they do." Ghanima shook her head, mouth pinched in distaste. "However, many believe that moral responsibility requires free will. If you have no free will, then how can you be held responsible for anything? Thus, another important issue in the debate on free will is whether individuals are ever morally responsible for their actions—and, if so, in what sense."

"There is an example that those of you native to this planet and era may be familiar with," she said, walking forward to being writing on the board.  "St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans addresses the question of moral responsibility as follows: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" If you follow Paul's line of reasoning, individuals can still be dishonoured for their acts even though those acts were ultimately completely determined by God."

"Of course, no matter the rules one chooses to abide by, there are almost always exceptions," Ghanima stated. "One exception to the assumption that moral culpability lies in either individual character or freely willed acts is in cases where the insanity defense—or its corollary, diminished responsibility—can be used to argue that a guilty deed was not the product of a guilty mind. In such cases, the legal systems of most Western societies assume that the person is in some way not at fault, because his actions were a consequence of abnormal brain functions."

"Now, then, let's ponder." Ghanima leaned against the wall to survey the room. "Moral responsibility, madness, and free will. Go." 

[OCD UP]

Comments

Sign-In #4

[atreideslioness]

As you will it to be.

Re: Sign-In #4

[kestrelswolf.livejournal.com]

Re: Sign-In #4

[trigons_child]

Rachel Roth

Listen to the Lecture

[atreideslioness]

Or not, as it's a matter of personal choice. Just beware the personal choice of the teacher if she catches you sleeping.

Re: Listen to the Lecture

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

Liir listened. And had Opinions.

Whether he would voice them or not was another matter.

Re: Listen to the Lecture

[momslilassassin]

It was amazing how much his opinion had changed on this since the last time he'd taken the class.

Ben took copious notes.

Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[atreideslioness]

If we assume destiny to be real, can people ever be held accountable for their actions? Why or why not?

[OOC: As will all class discussions, feel free to ping to anyone anywhere anywhen!]

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[walks-two-paths.livejournal.com]

"Destiny or not," Savannah said softly. "You should still be held accountable for your actions. Having a destiny doesn't mean that you should have free reign to terrorize and bully people on the way to that destiny."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[trigons_child]

Raven nodded. "A destiny does not control every single action. What you do along the way may make a difference."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

"Destiny is something you must do. How you accomplish it, I imagine, is up to you. Which leaves the accountability of an individual quite intact, I should think."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[thatsamilkshake]

Francine... was so not in the mood for thinking. But -- in what would seem rather an abrupt about-face from her defense of Oedipus for anybody who hadn't spent the last week with her, she muttered, "What if everybody's crazy. Kind of sucks as an excuse then, doesn't it."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[wantstobehuman.livejournal.com]

"What about other issues of accountability?" George asked. "Like, what you were saying with the insanity defense and diminished responsibility. I don't think... Even if there's some reason that you're not in control, I think you need to take responsibility for what you do.

"Whether it's destiny or... something else," he added, "if you're not going to be in control, I think you need to live your life in such a way that you limit the risk to people around you. Especially if you know when you're liable to be out of control."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[finding-x-dream.livejournal.com]

"It doesn't matter if they logically can," Agnes pointed out. "People are still going to hold them responsible, regardless."

Re: Class Discussion: Moral Responsibility

[anarchist-queen.livejournal.com]

"If it was their destiny to say, set fire to a building, then it's probably their destiny to be punished, if they get caught."

Class Discussion: Schools of Thought

[atreideslioness]

Look at all the handouts Ghanima has so thoughtfully provided! Which school of thought is closest to your own? Which one rankles you most? Why?

Western Philosophies | The Science of Free Will | Eastern Philosophies | Other Theologies

Re: Class Discussion: Schools of Thought

[glacial_queen]

Karla raised a hand. "What is this god that everyone talks about and why would he, she, or it have anything to do with our actions, never mind taking free will away. Why would it care? And even assuming that it can, what gives it the right to do so?"

Class Discussion: Insanity Defense

[atreideslioness]

Yea or Nay? Fight it out with your classmates!

Re: Class Discussion: Insanity Defense

[new-to-liirness.livejournal.com]

"Insanity is no defense," Liir said, looking quite sure of that.

"Any atrocity assumes a certain amount of madness in its author, and if one did it for greed or because one was mad does not change a dead body to a live one."

Re: Class Discussion: Insanity Defense

[glacial_queen]

"This question is quite difficult," Karla said thoughtfully. "On the one hand, walking in the Twisted Kingdom--being mad, I mean--legitimately warps the way one sees reality. One can look at a tree and see a child, look at a child and see a rabid wolf, look at a rabid wolf and see a friend. If madness were controllable or sensical, it wouldn't be madness. I suppose it matters what crimes that person commits while in the Twisted Kingdom and why. The Blood has no laws against murder, so sanity technically does not matter. Rape is punished by execution, but there might be some few reasons why being in the Twisted Kingdom would commute that sentence."

She bit her lip. "Everything has a price, and not even being in the Twisted Kingdom can free you from paying the debt that is owed. But it might lesson it some."

Talk to the TAs

[atreideslioness]

If that is your will.

Re: Talk to the TAs

[weetuskenraider]

. . . well. Tahiri was here, and talk-to-able, but getting her side of the conversation today might be a challenge . . .

Re: Talk to the TAs

[bigdamndestiny.livejournal.com]

Merlin was there and was not a kitten. Even if it was an adorable kitten.

Talk to Ghanima

[atreideslioness]

She's around, before and after class.

Re: Talk to Ghanima

[intraspective]

Ino knocked lightly on the door, after the class, a folded letter in one hand. "Miss Atreides?"

OOC

[atreideslioness]

Happy Monday!