Traditional Fairy Tales, Class Two

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

Monday, January 15, Period 2

The table in the center of the room was filled with breakfast pastries and hot drinks, there were stacks of books close at hand for the students to borrow for their readings assignments, and Aziraphale looked quite cheerful as he sat in his armchair and waited for the class to arrived.

"Good morning, everyone! I hope you all enjoyed your first week of classes. Today we'll begin our discussion of the basic character archetypes found in fairy tales. Your assigned reading was Jack the Giant Killer and Molly Whuppie. Following the lecture, we'll discuss the central characters in these two stories, and how they fit into the roles of hero and villain."

LECTURE: "With a few exceptions, every fairy tale contains two central figures: the hero or heroine, and the villain. These characters can take many forms, from innocent child to clever thief, from evil stepmother to hungry wolf, but the central conflict of a fairy tale often evolves around the idea of the hero outwitting the villain. The hero may have a quest to fulfill, a puzzle to solve, or a difficult situation to escape. They may act out of self-defense, altruism, love, or necessity -- sometimes even out of greed or fear. Heros display a common set of characteristics -- in general, they are quick-witted, creative, and bold. Villains are not always evil, but are in general selfish and greedy, and usually act out of a desire to fulfill personal needs or an often baseless dislike of the hero."

DISCUSSION: "Take a look at the two stories from your assigned reading. Identify the hero and villain in each one, and then explain what motivates their actions. In your opinion, why is the villain villainous, and why does the hero act heroically?

"I would also like you to take a little time at the end of class to meet with the members of your project groups. I'll be expecting proposals for your final project in a few weeks, and I'll try to give you time during each class to meet with one another."

ASSIGNMENT: "For next week, read Mr Fox and John the True."


[ooc: For those who are new to Aziraphale's classes, there is always a spread of breakfast pastries and hot drinks, which you are free to mod. Also, the room is always arranged with comfortable chairs and couches for seating, rather than desks. Please wait for the OCD threads are now up, and class is in session.]


Syllabus
Class Roster
Project Groups
Linkdrop for classes

Comments

Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

Give your views on the discussion question. Feel free to respond to one another.

Re: Discussion

[lovelylana.livejournal.com]

"Well, Jack seemed to become a hero because he was willing to do what needed to be done to protect people and he was successful at it. Molly Whuppie became a hero because of the things she did to protect her sisters and make sure all of their futures would be assured."

Lana made a little face. "In both stories, the giants were the villains because that was their nature - they caused destruction and ate humans."

Re: Discussion

[sensethevisions]

Phoebe nodded in agreement with Lana and continued to take notes.

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

"Very good, Miss Lang," Aziraphale said, with a nod. "Why do you think that stories like these might depict villains whose nature it is simply to be destructive? What purpose does it serve to have a villain who isn't necessary evil, but merely in opposition because of their...let's call it their 'natural disposition'?"

Re: Discussion

[lovelylana.livejournal.com]

"Maybe because if it's just the way they are then they're more like animals - not human?" Lana suggested. "It's one thing if you go and deliberately wipe out a group of dangerous animals, but humans cause a bigger moral dilemma."

Re: Discussion

[chasingsnitches.livejournal.com]

"The first story seems to tell that Jack is the hero while Cormoran and, later, the other giants are the villains. Jack was the hero due to trying to protect those around him and bringing to an end, the reign of the giants. If the giants had not be painted as taking whatever they wanted to serve themselves, I could've almost seen the giants not as villains, but as beings that were doing their bests to survive."

He paused for a moment.

"In the second story, I almost instantly want to say the parents are the villains as well as the giants. The parents left their children in the wood to fend for themselves and indirectly pushed them into the dangers with the giants. Molly Whuppie was the hero due to being clever, intelligent and brave. Though, later in the story, the king seems to take advantage of that by sending her back to the giants." He frowned. "It's really quite troubling to read that."

Re: Discussion

[untouchableskin.livejournal.com]

Marie nodded in agreement with Cedric's assessment.

"And the giant's wife wasn't much better, letting him get away with all those atrocities," she added. "And if you want to get right down to it, Molly's sisters weren't much help either."

Re: Discussion

[lovelylana.livejournal.com]

"Sisters and brothers never seem to be of much help in these stories. It always seems to be one person out there on their own," Lana added.

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

Aziraphale nodded as Cedric spoke. "Thank you, Mr Diggory. Let's touch a bit more on your observation about the king. Next week we'll be talking about some other character types, but I'd like to know whether you'd categorize the king in "Molly Whuppie" as a villain himself, or if see him fulfilling some other type of role. And...do you see any sort of connection between the parents and the king?"

Re: Discussion

[chasingsnitches.livejournal.com]

"The parents and the king both seem to be looking out for themselves more than looking out for the interests of those they're supposed to care for," Cedric said. "Parents are supposed to be keep their children safe. Kings are supposed to keep their kingdoms safe. Both the parents and the king in this story put the children at risk for their own benefit."

Re: Discussion

[iftheseshadows.livejournal.com]

Neil was quiet for a while, looking thoughtful before he raised his hand to give his opinion.

“It’s a little hard to say, Sir. I mean obviously from what we’ve learned in class, Jack is the hero in the first story and Molly the hero in the second. They both fit the ‘heroic myth’ and go on the ‘heroic’ journey. They come from humble beginnings, they are challenged from the onset with a task that they take on themselves for the betterment of others and they complete these seemingly insurmountable tasks through original thinking. Which seems a bit strange since as I recall from history, monarchies didn’t encourage original thinking but I guess if it made a good story… anyway.”

Taking a breath, Neil continued.

“But there is one small flaw in my ability to see either of them as pure hero in that they both receive monetary and social status gain from their endeavors. Molly in particularly, okay the first time she’s saving her life and the lives of her sisters but after that she’s just going after the giant’s stuff to get rewards from the king. Speaking of the giants, it’s obvious in both stories that they are to be the villains, mostly due to the grotesque language used to describe them and the horrific extremes of their actions but again, taking Molly in particular, once she and her sisters had escaped, what was heroic about her return to the giant’s lair to take his stuff? Were people in danger? Now in Jack’s story, the giants were out there bringing the horror to peaceful folks but Molly’s giant only get nasty when people were on his territory. So I guess I have a hard time seeing either Jack or Molly as completely heroic….err…even though, I guess that’s what the lecture was supposed to be about.”

Neil blushed a little and moved to sit down.

“Sorry, Sir.”

Re: Discussion

[moonbrain-tam.livejournal.com]

River looked at Neil. "Why do you assume heroes have to be selfless? And isn't using their large size and superior strength to kill people villainous enough, apart from grotesque looks?"

Re: Discussion

[iftheseshadows.livejournal.com]

"Well, if they're doing it for monetary reward, aren't they then called mercenary?" Neil asked. "If not, what's the difference between a hero performing a task for a grateful unit of people who then compensate them and a mercenary? The timing of the discussion of payment?"

Shifting slightly in his chair, Neil made a note and then looked back towards River.

"And as for the giants...well I guess I sort of subscribe to the idea that the winner tells the tale. After all, if these were tales written for giants how would they present the facts? I mean...okay, how about this, you point out the giants using their superior strength to kill people as being villainous. What about when people use their superior strength to...oh...say slaughter lambs or take eggs from chickens to eat? Does that make people villainous? The first giant in the Jack story, he took the oxen as a food source. Okay, maybe we'd like to see him sit down and negotiate with the villagers for a fair divison of resources but to the giant, he was bigger, he was superior in strength he took what he wanted and needed. When was the last time you heard of a farmer negotiating with a ewe that he was going to take her babies and turn them into lamb chops?"

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

"All very good questions, Mr Perry," Aziraphale replied. "I'd like you to tell me what you think. Why are the giants put into the role of villain, if the actions of the Molly Whuppie are in fact taking advantage and victimizing them? Think of it in the context of a teaching story, a way to pass on social standards and morals."

He smiled to let Neil know that he was pleased with the young man's response, then added, "And in answer to your observation about the hero appearing mercenary: remember that these stories would have been told among the lower classes originally. Why do you think the tellers and listeners to stories like these might be attracted to a hero who receives a monetary reward in the end?"

Re: Discussion

[iftheseshadows.livejournal.com]

Neil squirmed a bit in his chair, drawing his pencil through his fingers in a nervous twitch while he formulated his thoughts.

"Well, given the time in which these were written I rather imagine that the giants were an allegory for the nobility and the monarchy. As you say, these stories were told among the lower classes originally and in that position being subject to the capricious whims of a larger than life figure, whom it would be rare if you saw them on anything other than a horse, where they towered over you, well...a giant isn't that much a stretch."

Shifting a little in his chair, Neil gesticulated gracefully with his hands.

"I'm not saying that the story isn't meant to show the protagonists in anything other than a heroic light. Get the better of the oppressors, depower them as they depower us and make your fortune at their expense, it's a fairly common theme when you get into a society where the classes are so widely seperated by social economic status. It's just that from here from my stand point, not as a whatever century peasant, I don't find the story as clear cut, black and white as all that."

Neil tapped his pencil and looked a bit bemused.

"I guess, Sir that I don't see the story as a way to pass on a social standard, more I see it as a way to express discontent of many being controlled by few. But if there is a moral in the story, both Molly and Jack are written as clever, honest, always working folk and perhaps that's the moral. Make your fortune but do it through your mind and your worth ethic rather than by the circumstances of your birth."

Re: Discussion

[bookyeve.livejournal.com]

"Well, I'd say Molly was a heroine for protecting her sisters from the giant, and then helping provide them with husbands and herself with a future later on in the story." Evie frowned. "Which isn't the same way Jack approaches the giants; they're enemies because they kill indiscriminately, and he's looking for glory as well as upholding the peace. They're both more clever than the giants, but perhaps Jack is a boy he's allowed to go out looking for adventure for its own sake, rather than as a means to an end. And I'm not sure those who thought up the stories approached these things the way we do-- they seem to have a very laissez faire approach to the killing, and the reference to Molly 'never going back to Spain again' seems more political than fairy-tale." She took a breath. "I have more to say, but I'll stop for a moment because it's all jumbled up."

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

"You're doing just fine, Miss Carnahan," Aziraphale assured her. "It is a good point you raise, that we need to keep in mind that we're not the intended audience for these tales. So things that would seem unacceptable to us -- such as the indiscriminate killing you mention -- might not have been seen in the same light. Also, do you think that it makes a difference to the moral ambiguity of the tales that the villains are giants rather than humans?"

Re: Discussion

[bookyeve.livejournal.com]

"Oh, most definitely. One isn't supposed to question that they're wrong or dangerous, if they're designated as the giant, is one? Even though the giant in Molly Whuppie has three daughters, he's about to kill someone else's daughters. We aren't supposed to care that he's a family man. So it's supposed to be justice that he kills his own children. Which, well, I think it is, rather, but why couldn't Molly just wake up her sisters and leave? I mean, it's more *certain* the way she did it, but... And the giants in the Jack story are braggarts, and they're terrorizing the countryside, and are definitely enemies of the commonwealth, but one doesn't have to think about that, either-- they're giants, therefore they're monsters. But Jack brags about killing giants too, with his armor, and swaggering around. And Molly keeps going back for another treasure for her sisters' dowries instead of just saying 'oh, I'd rather have a shop in Chelsea'." Evie took another huge breath. "The crown is the ultimate authority, and one isn't supposed to question it in these tales. It's a goal and a dream, of becoming part of it, by marriage or skill at arms."

Re: Discussion

[l1ttle-billy.livejournal.com]

"Well on the surface of things, these stories are almost black and white. The giants are the villains because they kill and eat people, steal their livestock and things. Molly and Jack are the heroes because they defeat the villains. But Jack's sole motivation in a lot of these cases was his own gain. He never made a move against the first giant until he was offered something in return. And Molly killed someone. Someone who's only sin was being associated with the Giant. Someone who, if I recall correctly, had tried to warn Molly and her sisters off."

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

"So, it sounds as if you're saying that Jack acts heroically out of the desire for personal gain," Aziraphale replied, nodding at Billy's statement. "Why does Molly take on the role of the hero in her story? And if the giants have sympathetic qualities as well -- particularly in the case of "Molly Whuppie" -- how do you think a listener or reader is expected to react to them? How is the tale able to keep the giant in the role of villain if the hero's actions can elicit sympathy for the villain?"

Re: Discussion

[anextimeagent.livejournal.com]

The giants in both stories were acting within their natures, but some of them were pretty nasty, so I guess the giants would have to be considered villains."

"Much as I like the guy, Jack wasn't a hero - he was a trickster and a conman, motivated by self-interest. He did things that ended up being considered heroic, but he wasn't trying. I mean, look at it. Most of the giants he killed for money, or to save his own skin, and while he did give the fair ladies a chance to escape, all he did was give them the keys. He didn't actually help them. You know he hooked up with the prince because anyone that stupidly generous was bound to pay off in the end. And he did. Once he was a knight, he had to keep killing giants - it was what they'd come to expect of him, and I also think there was a big dash of wanting adventure. It was only at the very end that he acted out of a desire to protect someone, when he promised the old man he'd risk his life to save the Duke's daughter, maybe because there wasn't anyone but him who could. His heroism was mostly incidental, an added bonus," here Jack grinned, "but he was very, very good, and you have to give him points for that."

He paused before going on to the second. "Molly was clever and quick and she did what she had to do to keep her sisters safe. Nothing else was more important than that. Everything she did was to protect them, and I think that does makes her a hero. The king was the real villain, because he used Molly, trading on her love for her sisters to steal things he was too cowardly to get for himself."

Re: Discussion

[bookyeve.livejournal.com]

"I was worried about the ladies too. Couldn't someone have given them a good meal after that, at least? And what about the mess the giant made?" Evie asked, shaking her head. "And what did the Duke's daughter say about that? Although I suppose she was just glad not to be enchanted any more. But really, there's not much romance in this fairy tale romance, is there?"

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

Aziraphale smiled when Jack was finished speaking. "What do you think might be the use of a story that portrays a hero who seems to be working for personal gain rather than out of altruism or self-defense?"

[ooc: Apologies, I deleted the wrong tag. :( ]

Re: Discussion

[connernotconnor.livejournal.com]

Conner grinned sheepishly. "Okay, I tend to side with both Jack and Molly as being the heroes, but that's because I'm biased on the subject of giants and I'll admit it. But when you've had to deal with as many twenty-story tall monsters as I have, it's kind of hard not to see the giants as the bad guys. Jack's kind of a jerk though. He's only in it for himself."

He fiddled with his pencil. "It is a short story, though. Makes me wonder what would've happened to him afterward . . . sometimes people who are only in it for themselves can change, you know?"

Re: Discussion

[a-phale.livejournal.com]

"So you also agree with the other students, who would have been more comfortable with the heros if they'd been less self-oriented, if their deeds had been more what we consider classically 'heroic'?" Aziraphale asked. "And you raise an interesting idea, about what might happen if we could see these characters down the road. If you're interested in an extra credit assignment, Mr McKnight, feel free to write up what you think, based on what you learn about Jack in this story, he might become if the tale continued."