Philosophies of Good and Evil, Tuesday

[suitably_heroic]

"Welcome back, everybody," Lana said. "Now that we've gotten the pesky good-and-evil thing out in the open, we can talk a bit about what it means and how you might approach it. For one thing, not every philosophy does deal in good and evil. And those that do, often distinguish as some of you did, between the good a person is and the good they do.

"There's an Earth philosophy called Virtue ethics that says that what a person is, is most important. It also lists out a number of moral virtues that it declares are absolute. I'm partial to the one that sees knowledge as the only virtue, but honestly that's a bit simplistic. Generally, there is a list of virtues, and they fall in a median state between two extremes. For instance, between rashness and cowardice is courage."

She shrugged. "So, according to this, you should strive to act in a way that falls in line with these particular virtues, and that involves both reasoning through them, and knowing intrinsically what's right. It goes without saying that everybody thinks the same thing is right," she added wryly. That was definitely the case, right?

"Other approaches argue that an event or a deed can be good or evil regardless of the person behind it. That what a person is, is irrelevant in the face of what they do. What their effect on the world was. An act is good or evil based on its outcome, not the intent causing it. And again, naturally that outcome is something universally recognized as good or evil." They'd probably get to those assumptions later.

"So, is killing one person wrong? What if that person is a murderer? What if they are genocidal? What if causing genocide saves the lives of others? Does it depend upon the people you're killing, or the people you're saving? Is it a purely mathematical calculation?"

“Or as they like to say, killing one person’s self defense, killing a million is statistics, and anything in between is probably murder,” Atton said merrily. Sort of. In as much as one could seem merry, leaning back in a seat, feet on the desk, looking bored. “Last week, you guys talked a big game about intent, and then walked it back a little when questioned. I heard the phrase ‘someone might think they’re doing good, but actually they’re misguided’ more than once, which seems like a lot.”

He sat up. “Here’s the thing, though: who decides what ‘misguided’ is?” he said. “If you’re Aristotle, of virtue ethics fame, it seems pretty easy. Are you acting from some intrinsic wisdom and courage? Then you’re probably all right. If you’re acting out of cowardice, mm, you’re probably evil. Except ol’ Aristotle probably had some ideas about what wisdom means that don’t fit what the next girl thinks. So suddenly it’s his word against hers.”

He tossed Lana a casual look. “Today, we’re going to lead you through a purely hypothetical exercise,” he said, sarcasm in his voice. “Four scenarios. Evil or good? That’s your call.”

Comments

Sign In

[suitably_heroic]

Virtuously.

Re: Sign In

[outofthequiver]

Liberty Hazlett

Re: Sign In

[sith_happened]

Anakin Skywalker

Re: Sign In

[gospel_of_oblivion]

Illyana Rasputin

Listen to the Lecture

[suitably_heroic]

There actually is one, this week.

Good or Evil?

[suitably_heroic]

Four scenarios. Four choices. Motivate your choices.

Good or Evil? - One

[suitably_heroic]

“There’s a war going on in the eastern provinces of your country. People are dying, the fighting’s getting closer and closer to the capital. In the mountains to the west, there’s a garrison of extremely powerful elite fighters and scholars, but they’re an independent unit. When asked to join the fight, they refuse, because they’re worried their presence might start an arms race and ultimately worsen the battle, causing much more harm. Good choice or evil choice?”

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[sith_happened]

"Choices made from a place of fear or anxiety tend to backfire," Anakin said after thinking it through. "How would their presence start an arms race? The enemy should already be striving to reach their level of weaponry and skill."

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[suitably_heroic]

Atton shrugged. "Earth had a similar event," he said. "'They've got nukes, we've got to get nukes so they won't use theirs'."

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[gospel_of_oblivion]

"What's the war about?" Illyana asked, frowning. "--and why hasn't the other side already started an arms race? Isn't that usually the first thing that happens in a war? Everyone starts building better and best bombs as fast as possible?"

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[suitably_heroic]

"Conquest," Atton said. "And... no, not quite. People tend to go in fairly cautious, at first, to minimize the amount they have to invest in both cash and manpower. An arms race starts when one side is afraid the other has something bigger and better than what they have, and start to plan accordingly."

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[napking]

Gray yawned and said, "So their plan is to just sit there and not do anything because oooooh what if? Sounds like Sloth reasoning to me."

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[suitably_heroic]

"And Sloth reasoning is...?"

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[stykera]

"Are they refusing to help at all? Choosing to do nothing when you could help can't be a good choice."

That didn't necessarily make it evil.

Re: Good or Evil? - One

[suitably_heroic]

"Why not, if you think helping will ultimately be worse?"

Yes, Atton hated having to argue for the stupid old Jedi right now, thank you.

Good or Evil? - Two

[suitably_heroic]

“Now, some of the younger fighters disagree with their elders. They believe it is in their ability to help, to stop the suffering entirely; they can't just stand by and watch. So they openly defy orders and join the fight. The tide starts turning in your country’s favor, but the fighting has gotten very aggressive, and the death toll is rising exponentially because of the weapons the other side has had to switch to to deal with them. Still, the younger fighters continue. Good choice or evil choice?”

Re: Good or Evil? - Two

[gospel_of_oblivion]

"See, this is when I think the onus is on the aggressor to go, 'oh shit, at this rate we're just going to rule ashes and there is no profit in that,' and go the fuck home," Illyana said. "I assume the invaders are capitalists or colonialists, anyway, that drives a lot of conquest."

"If they are not and this is simply a war of ego, then yes, that escalation is still on the invaders. They fucked around, they are finding out, the deaths remain on them, not on the people who did not want to kneel and asked for aid, and not on the people providing the requested aid."

Good or Evil? - Three

[suitably_heroic]

“Hurray, the war is over! Both the elite elders and the country’s government want to go back to the way things used to be. But everyone who was caught up in the war is angry, and tired, and they’ve lost faith that their leaders mean the best for them. Because who just stands back and watches people suffer? So they turn their swords to the capital, and try to take over. Good choice or evil choice?”

Re: Good or Evil? - Three

[gospel_of_oblivion]

"This one is easier -- if we have not tried to change the system without stabbing first, we are not allowed to start changing the system with decapitations, as fun as they are," Illyana answered cheerfully. "We are supposed to give them things like free elections and protests as a chance to make better decisions, before we start with murder as a form of social change."

"Do not get me wrong, I very much understand the impulse." Which would be why there was now an urban legend about 'The Ghost Girl of I-20' who made men vanish. "--but if I am actually moderately-demonic and can resist the urge to murder everyone who pisses me off for being stupid and install myself as a god-queen, they should probably start with open hands and sheathed swords -- and loud voices -- first. Maybe throw some tomatoes or shoes or rocks if they need to really give physical action to their pain. Burn a few effigies to get the point across about how serious they are, if they are not brought to the table as equals."

"But I am pretty sure the ethical answer is the taking of heads should come after the fair trials for war crimes of inaction, according to whatever laws they have."

Mind you, Illyana was not ruling-out the guillotine option eventually. All revolutionaries had to have back-up plans.

Good or Evil? - Four

[suitably_heroic]

Atton leaned back again. “The resulting civil war devastates many cities and towns and people all over the country,” he said. “It seems obvious this was a disastrous choice. Except five years later, another army invades, and this time, the country is so militarized it knocks them right back over the border. Turns out the leader of the younger elite fighters who joined the first war had seen this coming and a lot of his choices in the civil war were meant to prepare his army for the war to come. Good choice or evil choice?”

Talk to the Teachers

[suitably_heroic]

One is side-eyeing the other.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[suitably_heroic]

Atton would be the side-eyeing half.

He should probably talk to Lana about that last one, huh.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[unusual_sith]

Lana was curiously eyeing that side-eye.

Re: Talk to the Teachers

[suitably_heroic]

"Was it you," Atton said. Idle. Bored, really.

OOC

[suitably_heroic]

KoTORs 1 and 2 make one hell of a Star Wars story.


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