Lies Your Other Teachers Told You, January 12, 2018

[heroic_jawline]

There were two teachers at the head of the class today and one of them looked like he was ready for a fight. The other mostly looked like he needed more coffee.

No points for guessing which was which.

"Welcome back," Tony said. "Everyone say hello to your other teacher, Captain Rogers."

Steve gave a quick wave. "Hello. It's nice to see some familiar faces. Today we're going to talk about the dangers of talking around actual, definable problems with historical figures, both past and present. Heroification makes people over into heroes. Through this process, people turn flawed, flesh-and-blood individuals into pious, perfect creatures without conflicts, pain, credibility, or human interest." He smiled. "I read that last part in a book, but it's true."

Tony smiled and looked like he was trying not to laugh. "While they were crucial to the founding of this country, many of the Founders were also slave owners or soldiers who helped demolish the native populations that were here long before our country was even an idea. But today we hold them up to the gold standard of what we think the country should be."

"Washington, Jefferson, Madison all owned slaves," Steve said, nodding. "Christopher Columbus wasn't here to prove the world was round. Andrew Jackson was a violent racist. Does it affect how we view their contributions to world history? Yes, because it makes them people, not cartoons."

"Washington, the very first president of the country and famed military general for the revolution, didn't even think the constitution would last more than a few decades," Tony added. So, take jerkwads who used it to argue for bullshit. "Though, that may be due to the fact that in no way was the country a unified state, more a loose confederact of different states who barely tolerated each other."

But details, details.

"Sometimes they still barely tolerate each other," Steve muttered. "Okay. The topic discussion today: why is it so dangerous to turn these very real people into untouchable icons?"

Comments

Sign in 1/12

[heroic_jawline]

Heroically!

Re: Sign in 1/12

[intotheout]

Gratuity Tucci

Re: Sign in 1/12

[reicicled]

Bobby Drake

Re: Sign in 1/12

[spell_chucker]

Khadgar

Re: Sign in 1/12

[always_someone]

Norman Babcock

Listen to the lecture!

[heroic_jawline]

It wasn't as ranty as it could be? Yay?

Re: Listen to the lecture!

[intotheout]

Considering the topic was basically "these people are revered but also treated your ancestors as property", Tip could have used a bit more rant, today.

Re: Listen to the lecture!

[reicicled]

Speaking of familiar faces... Bobby supposed he ought to have guessed the 'Captain Rogers' that Mr. Stark had referred to last week meant this Captain Rogers, really.

So he was just gonna. Sink down into his seat and wish he had invisibility powers.

Re: Listen to the lecture!

[always_someone]

Norman was mostly just nodding along, this week.

Yeah, stripping key points from history's narrative was a problem. He knew that well enough.

Discuss!

[heroic_jawline]

Why is it a bad idea to build up real people into unattainable icons of themselves? The two superheroes teaching the class are very interested.

Re: Discuss!

[intotheout]

"Well, for one thing, pretending racism wasn't a thing in the past makes it even harder for white people to acknowledge that racism is a thing now."

Re: Discuss!

[imafuturist]

"That is a good point," Tony replied. "The sheer level of hypocrisy behind using the 'we hold these truths to be self evident' line while a good number of the delegates were slaveowners."

Re: Discuss!

[intotheout]

"But Jefferson couldn't have been a racist," Tip said, deeply sarcastically. "One of his best lovers was a black woman."

Re: Discuss!

[imafuturist]

Tony snorted at her tone and nodded. "Ignoring the fact that consent wasn't possible for whatever the relationship was or wasn't in reality."

Re: Discuss!

[reicicled]

Because sometimes when a future version of your friend drags you into said future you get yelled at by Future Captain America!

"Um," said Bobby, "cause it makes it easier to excuse the bad stuff they did or said with 'they were from a different time' or whatever."

Re: Discuss!

[imafuturist]

"Another good point," Tony said, giving the poor kid a smile. "Do you think we should disregard them or just take their impact with a grain of salt?"

Re: Discuss!

[reicicled]

"Definitely that second one," Bobby said. "Maybe sometimes with a whole truckload of salt, though."

Re: Discuss!

[imafuturist]

That made Tony laugh at least. "Any of them in particular?"

Re: Discuss!

[spell_chucker]

"Well, I can imagine that it might make it hard for the people to change their minds about things," Khadgar said. "If people build someone up because of a belief they agree with, and then the person changes their belief... that could get ugly."

Re: Discuss!

[imafuturist]

"Do think it could ever be a good thing to do?" Tony asked.

Re: Discuss!

[always_someone]

"Because it's impossilbe to learn from the mistakes of the past if you don't even know they were made," Norman replied, and then paused for a moment, considered, and added, "and because shutting up about what they did and wiping it under the rug that way isn't any different from excusing it, really. These people are our heroes, and we idolize them so much that we can't possibly hold them accountable for the things they did? Then why should anyone be held accountable for the same? Washington did it, so it's fine."

Re: Discuss!

[heroic_jawline]

Steve nodded. "And when it seems too easy and pat to fix it in the history books it becomes far too easy to become complacent about how easy it would be to fix again if it ever came back around again."

So much side-eye at the current White House. SO MUCH. "How do you learn how to productively have difficult conversations if you learn through your classes to avoid them instead?"

Re: Discuss!

[always_someone]

"It would be nice if I could say that just living life took care of that part," Norman replied wryly. "But not many people actually let little things like 'the way things really are' get in the way of their fantasy world where nothing is horrible ever, and where it certainly isn't their fault."

Bitter teen, here. As if this school wasn't already full of those, right?

Talk to Tony and Steve!

[heroic_jawline]

They like to talk.

OOC

[heroic_jawline]

Everything's fine here in West Shithole. Ugh.