fandomhigh | Philosophy of Loss, Friday, Period 2

"Hi, people," Didi said easily, once the students were gathered. "This week I wanted to talk about the Kübler-Ross model of grief. If that doesn't ring a bell, I bet it will once I get a little more into it.

"Now, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross was a Swiss psychiatrist, and in 1969 she wrote a book called 'On Death and Dying' that was inspired by her work with terminally ill patients. And Kübler-Ross's most famous theory is that people who lose a loved one go through five stages -- denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance."

"Denial is when you refuse to believe that whatever's happened is real. You might, for example, insist that the dead person is a case of mistaken identity. Anger is 'why me? It's not fair. Whose fault is this?'. It's a time of a lot of frustration, and a lot of lashing out at anybody and everybody convenient. Bargaining is trying to negotiate -- 'I'll go to church every week if you just bring my child back to life,' for example. Depression is, well, depression. You're sad, everything seems like too much effort, you may not even want to get out of bed. And all of those things are totally normal and natural, and they all lead up to the last stage -- acceptance. Which is where the grieving person stops, takes a breath, and says, 'I'm sad, but it'll be okay.'" She paused there, spreading her hands in a gesture of acceptance, before smiling and letting them fall.

"Now, a lot of you might be thinking that sounds too easy, and it does. Research has shown the model's not particularly reliable, for one thing. Even Dr. Kübler-Ross herself admitted that the stages might come in any order, that some people felt other emotions, and that not everyone is going to feel all five."

"But it's still interesting because of how it's seeped into the culture. You see jokes about the five stages on sitcoms. People need to be told not to see themselves as broken if their grief doesn't follow the pattern."

"So my question for you today is, are the five stages something we should talk about? Or should we forget about it and find a new model? I'm curious what you think."

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

In one of the five stages!

Listen, take notes, and so on.

Are the five stages of grief a valid model, or should we replace them with something else?

Once we ping in!

I am so late to the party but why did I not start watching Always Sunny sooner?

Didi was looking forward to the break week, but she still lingered after class a bit in case anyone wanted to talk to her.

Dante (who has been stuck in the same stage since forever)

After the singing shit from this week, Dante had absolutely no interest in talking about this whatsoever.

So he spent most of class doodling angelic and demonic stick figures on a piece of paper. It passed the time.

Elsa of Arendelle

"I'm curious," Elsa ventured, "why people think there needs to be a model at all. Everybody experiences pain differently, experiences grief differently. Just because anger and depression and the like are things that people commonly experience doesn't mean they even experience those the same way as anybody else. So... whose benefit is this model really for?"

Kathy Li

Kathy was a lot more with it than she was last week and while she was taking notes, she would happily talk to anyone who wanted to.

Frank Doyle

"I think we can shave some stages off if we really apply ourselves," Frank said. "In my model, Stage 1 is Obsess Over It And Spend the Next Year Preparing An Attempt To Cheat Death And Bring Your Loved One Back, but I guess you can call that Early Bargaining if you need a catchier name. If Stage 1 is successful, congratulations! No need to grieve! If it's no, go to Stage 2: Sad Drinking. But here's the fun part. If you work hard, you can get to Stage 3: Happy Drinking in no time!"

THAT'S WHERE I WAS TWO YEARS AGO. Catching up was the very best thing. The show is amazing.

"It's a good question," Didi allowed. "I think sometimes people aren't really used to talking about feelings at all, and sometimes people aren't used to seeing someone they love grieving. So being able to look at a book and say 'I'm angry' or 'she's in denial' and know that it's normal and it should pass -- that can sometimes make people feel less alone."

Elsa worried at her lip for a moment, and then looked at Didi questioningly.

"But what about the ones who look at a book and wonder what's the matter with them? The ones who skipped straight from denial to depression, who stayed there for a while, who lapse back now and again?" She pulled in a slow breath. "Or those who might decide somebody else is grieving wrong because the steps weren't quite right. Does that happen?"

"That's the problem," Didi agreed. "And that's why a lot of people now will tell you not to take the stages too seriously, and why even Dr. Kubler-Ross felt they were being misinterpreted."

She brushed her hair out of her face,thoughtful. "I can say it is absolutely not okay to use this model, or any model, to say somebody else is grieving 'wrong.'"

Kaylin Neya

Elsa nodded a little, sitting silently while she mulled that over.

"But it could be useful... for just recognizing that people can go through a wide array of different emotions. That their means of coping, or not coping, might be different from day to day, or even moment to moment. Do you suppose that's what the Doctor really meant to convey?"

Raven Darkholme

"I think so," Didi said, gently. "I really do. And if you take it that way and don't try to turn it into some how-to manual, it's not a bad thing to think about."

"Not bad at all," Elsa murmured. "There's no wrong way to experience pain. And no one way. And all of the things she listed off are normal, but not... mandatory, or even all-inclusive. It's just a list of examples."

She murmured that a few more times under her breath, cementing that into her mind before smiling faintly.

"That's... it's good to know."

Thorin

Philosophy of Loss, Friday, Period 2

Sign In [10/09]

Lecture [10/09]

Discussion [10/09]

Talk to Didi & Kathy [10/09]

OOC [10/09]

Re: Talk to Didi & Kathy [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

Re: Lecture [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

Re: Talk to Didi & Kathy [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: OOC [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

Re: Discussion [10/09]

Re: Sign In [10/09]

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Re: Sign In [10/09]