Practical Philosophy, Monday

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"We talked about it a little last week," Ender said, "And since nothing catastrophic has happened since, we might as well continue on that yarn-- about identity, and specifically, the debate surrounding nature and nurture."

It was another nice-ish day, and so they were outside again. Bag of sandwiches, drinks, the works. Ender seemed fairly serene about it all.

"The nature versus nurture debate is an old one," he said. "The original progenitor of the term was the polymath Francis Galton. He approached it as something of a binary. Philosophers like John Locke claimed the nurture end was the right side of the stick - that all humans were born blank slates to be imprinted on. On the other side, you had people such as the behavioral geneticists, who felt most behaviors were derived from your DNA."

He smiled a little.

"Common wisdom dictates that this binary isn't so clear-cut," he said. "There's a little bit of nature and nurture in all of us. But how much, and how?"

Comments

Sign In!

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With your heritage.

Re: Sign In!

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

Elsa of Arendelle

Re: Sign In!

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

Barry Ween

Listen to the Lecture

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Or partake of a sandwich.

Re: Listen to the Lecture

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

Once again, Elsa was choosing to pass on the sandwiches (though they really did look good) in favour of a bottle of water, instead. Today's discussion had her sitting quietly and looking thoughtful. She'd contemplated different aspects of this topic to herself quite often as she was growing up.

Talk.

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Nature versus nurture. Go.

Re: Talk.

[iceolatedqueen.livejournal.com]

"I suppose... the answer to that is tied up in how strong the influence of either actually is," Elsa offered. "I want to think that nature can be overcome if the will to do so and the necessary support is there. But then... I can see how in some cases, nature winning over nurture is the best thing for a person in certain circumstances, as well."

She pulled in a slow breath and held it.

"The push I've always been most familiar with has been the one against nature. I can't really speak for people who lean the other way, and my situation might be very specific to myself. But I think it's always been for the best."

Ish.

Re: Talk.

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

"So what's so wrong about your nature that you have to fight against it?" Barry asked. "No offense but you seem more in control of everything than any teenager I've ever met."

Re: Talk.

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"What makes you say that?" Ender prompted. "Why is fighting nature a good idea?"

Re: Talk.

[bjornstjarna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Soren could definitely relate to Elsa's point of view here, as it mirrored the one he'd had for most of his childhood.

"I grew up knowing that I was dangerous, someone to be feared," Soren offered her, with a small smile. "This was the last thing I wanted."

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

Joker raised an eyebrow at her. "You do? You really think that?"

Re: Talk.

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

Barry shrugged a bit when it came to be his turn. "I'm the wrong person to ask about nature vs. nurture," Barry began. "I was self-aware in my Mom's womb and hid my intelligence from them at an early age because I knew they'd fuck my life up somehow. I guess I'm more of a nature product? Then again I spent my time nurturing my best friend who would turned into an uptight fuckwad since childhood and was able to make him a better person."

Granted Jeremy was a misogynist hummingbird on crack. And was a complete horndog. But he was truly a good person! That counts for something right?"

Re: Talk.

[not_every_mage]

"I'm not sure I know," Anders admitted. "I see bits of some of my parents' qualities in myself, but I don't know if that's because they're my parents or because they raised me. I don't even know how you can tease out the combination."

He sipped his water and added, "But I do think if it's mostly nurture, it takes root early. Otherwise every Circle mage would be the same, since we all live there from the time we're 12 or so."

Re: Talk.

[pasunereveuse.livejournal.com]

"It's a combination, with most people," Celia decided quietly. "I think, in my own experience, I was born with innate abilities and natural inclinations. But I think that the way those abilities and inclinations have manifested, and the way I am today, is largely a product of my upbringing."

She shrugged a shoulder, slightly uncomfortable, and added, "When we had that...problem where we became other versions of ourselves, I became a Celia who was raised by my mother, instead of my father, and she was incredibly different even though the same natural, genetic material was present. I think nature provides the foundation, to borrow a metaphor, but that nurture is going to decide what is built there."

Re: Talk.

[bjornstjarna.livejournal.com]

"I'm a berserker," Soren began. "With a few exceptions, we're born, not made. After my father died, I wanted nothing more than to bury my own nature deep within me so it couldn't get out. I didn't want his fate to become mine. My mother would ask me if I could feel the threads of destiny tightening around me, and I'd always say no, of course not. But no matter how hard I tried to push it down, how hard I wished to be rid of it completely, I never could."

THANKS FOR PUTTING MY COMMENT IN THE WRONG PLACE LJ JEEEEZ

Re: Talk.

[nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com]

Eleanor was a psychiatrist's daughter. She ought to be fascinated by the topic. But.

"I don't want it to be true," she said sharply. "I don't want to be a product of nature. I don't want to be like her."

That ... wasn't exactly the question.

Re: Talk.

[fly-so-serious.livejournal.com]

"Isn't the whole question settled?" Joker asked. "I mean, the answer is 'both'. It's always 'both'. It's not an either-or, it's a 'how much', and the answer's different for every trait you're looking at. I mean, genes are genes -- and trust me, I know that better than anyone" -- he waved a crutch in the air -- "but how a gene gets expressed is different for everyone, and it can depend any number of environmental things."

Joker shrugged. "Also depends on the observer, too, to some extent. During the whole... mess... this spring, I spent some time without a crippling genetic disease. As far as I'm concerned, I was a completely different person in every way that matters -- but I'm sure most people didn't notice the difference."

Re: Talk.

[bearmaidenfair]

"Like Soren," Vider began, "I'm a berserker. But I'm one of those exceptions he mentioned: I chose this. I asked it of Odin, as a boon. I didn't want to be what I was, and so I became something else. Something stronger."

Re: Talk.

[kenselvren.livejournal.com]

Jalian drank some water, still not feeling entirely herself after that "frappuccino" the other night. She couldn't much see the point in this discussion; the dichotomy seemed like something silly a male would come up with.

"What does it matter?" she asked. "We can't go back upon our own timeline, change it, and notice the difference. We can only be who we are."

Talk to the TA

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Bet Cade's got some choice words on the subject.

Re: Talk to the TA

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

Cade had a lot to say on this subject, which was why he'd jammed his face full of sandwich to avoid saying any of it out loud.

Talk to the Teacher

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He remains after class, cleaning up.

Re: Talk to the Teacher

[makemyownway.livejournal.com]

Cade loitered behind as well, pretending to help clean.

OOC

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Nul points to Steve for not waiting until the OOC went up and causing the world to end!

Re: OOC

[notaweenie.livejournal.com]

What if I stop the end of the world? I can totally do that.