fandomhigh | Professor Chaucer's Office Hours, Monday

"Sounds good," Geoff replies, grinning. "Why don't we start with Inferno. Tell me...what you thought about it. What you think Dante was trying to accomplish with it and your own reaction to the material."

Kiki nods, and tries to order her thoughts. "I don't really think that Dante was really trying to make a treatise on how people should behave or act. It's not a moral work, it's far too political for that - he almost goes out of his way to specifically mention the names of certain people he imagines to be in hell. But I don't think it's a vindictive work, or something he wrote to get revenge on anyone - unless, as since he's being led through hell, it's a metaphor for him being led through his own personal anger against these people so he can get past it and on with his life, or afterlife. That being said, he does outline equally specific tortures for those who sinned and refused redemption in their mortal forms, and each one is designed to fit the sin. Sort of like karmic retribution. From what I've been able to determine, the church can be a little vague on just what the tortures in hell involve, and this outlines it for the people, regardless of whether Dante was speaking metaphorically or not."

She takes a small breath. "And my reaction to it is... a little tough to descibe, I guess."

He cocks his head and studies Kiki's face. "If that's something you don't want to get into, it's fine, Kiki. Let's go on to the discussion we had in class. Choose one of the nine circles Dante describes and tell me why you think he chose to situate that particular sin in that particular place in the sequence, keeping in mind that the punishment gets worse the higher the number. For example, why are the slothful in the Fifth Circle, or thieves in the Eighth Circle?"

"I guess it just made a particularly strong impression on me. Not the punishments or the sins, but the idea of facing your own mortality - or what comes after," Kiki answers. "I thought it was strange that Dante considered hypocrites in the eighth circle worse than the tyrants and war-mongers in the seventh. I would have reversed the two, for a tyrant is a hypocrite on a much larger scale - ruling according to whim and being ruled by none. I guess I take a little offense that I would be put in the 8th level, just because I'm a witch, and I would be punished more severely than a murderer. I think Dante is trying to say that those in level eight are worse because they supposedly prey on another person's spiritual well-being or faith, rather than another person's health, livelihood, wealth, body and work, or that a soul damaged this way is worse than one who belonged to one who threw away life by committing suicide. I don't really agree."

Geoff grins, obviously pleased that Kiki's got such a good grasp on the material. This independent study plan seems to really be working out well for her.

"All right...one more thing from that class, then. We had a quiz."

He pulls out a piece of paper and writes down five questions:

1. Define "parodos".

2. What tactic do the women of Athens use in Lysistrata to convince the men to stop fighting?

3. What is the subject of Symposium?

4. What three plot patterns make up the structure of Symposium?

5. According to Dante's Inferno, what category of sinners are tormented in the First and Ninth circles of hell respectively?

Kiki bites her lip as she looks at the first question, and finally writes,

"1. An opening set of choral versus in an ancient Greek play. Also, the rear side of a trench in warfare, opposite the parapet."

She's such a show-off.

"2. Sexual frustration.

3. A series of dissertations on love made by orators during a dinner.

4. The arguments are cyclical, each one elaborating, rebutting, or presenting an alternate case to one that has come before.

5. The first circle of hell is reserved for the virtuous non-believers. According to Dante, a number of ancient Greek scientists, philosophers and writers are punished here for the egregious crime of daring to live 1500 years before Christ was born. The ninth circle of hell is the frozen lake of Cocytus where the betrayers and traitors are encased in ice for the coldness of their hearts."

"And that does it for Dante. Do you feel up to moving on to Julius Caesar, or do want a little more time for the reading?"

Kiki gives a shrug and a grin. "Let's give it a shot," she answers.

[Mun hasn't actually read this one, so might be a little more handwavey on this one. Or blatant cribbing. ;-) ]

"This one won't be quite as complicated as Dante was. Also, I didn't lead the discussion, Professor Lyman did, so I'm going to read you his presentation and have you respond to that."

Geoff goes through his notes and pulls out a page that he reads from.

"'Julius Caesar, if you're looking at it from a political angle, is a story about how a guy with a good speech will beat a guy with good intentions pretty much every time. Brutus agonizes over the possibility of killing Caesar for the good of the Republic for, well, entirely too many scenes. He finally joins the assassins, kills Caesar, only to have the momentum stolen from him by Marc Antony's 'Friends, Romans, countrymen...' speech. My question is: was Shakespeare right? Can righteous men serve in politics, or will they end up being tricked by people they thought were their friends, have their ideals shattered in front of them and end up in a dizzying downward spiral of death and iambic pentameter?'"

[ooc: OMG! You haven't read Julius Caesar? Get thee to a library, young lady! It's one of my favorites!]

"I think that depends," Kiki answers, "On whether or not the righteous man is also a good orator. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If a righteous man has the handy weapon of rhetoric on his side, then he has a doubled power - ethics as well as the ability to present them attractively. And this might be splitting hairs, but it also depends on the definition of 'righteous.' Righteous, ethical, and moral aren't at all the same things. Brutus spent so long agonizing over his decision to join the conspirators because he was torn between his love for his friend and his love for his country, and he took the decision of being righteous for the Republic while Marc Antony took the decision of being righteous for the life of one person. If Brutus had been able to play on the sympathies of the crowd and eloquently defend his action as a moral act as well as a righteous one, then he would have been successful. I think a righteous man could serve in politics - I think ideally, that is what everyone would truly want to see - but I think political systems are inherently inclined to the disillusionment of idealists."

[*shames* I have all the plays, sonnets and other stuff in a massive Tome o' Billy on my shelf, I just haven't gotten to that one yet. I'll lobby my friend for that to be the one we do this summer. Every so often my friend has a big BBQ and a bonfire, everyone shows up in some sort of costume and we do a Shakespeare play outdoors. I think it all started when he felt he needed to justify owning 30 copies of Midsummer a couple years ago. Not, of course, that owning that many copies of it really requires justification, but... y'know.]

"Beautifully spoken, Kiki. You know...have you given any thought to taking CJ's speech classes? I think you'd do well."

Leaning back a little in his chair, he says, "Then, I guess the only other thing I have to say is...do you have any questions about either of the readings?"

]"And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge, with Ate by his side come hot from hell, will in these confines with a monarch's voice cry 'Havoc', and let slip the dogs of war, that these foul deeds will smell above the earth, with carrion men, groaning for burial.'

No, I totally don't have that memorized. Why do you ask? *g*]

"Speech class?" squeaks Kiki, her eyebrows shooting up to meet her hairline. "As in... talking to a huge lot of people all at once? Oh - I - prepared speeches like that, I'd be terrified!"

So much for eloquence. One-on-one and off the cuff she seems quite comfortable, but the notion of trying to orate to an attentive group seems to petrify her.

"Um, I'll think about it," she admits at last, once she's reconnected her mouth to a coherent brain. "I was wondering - since I've not seen this performed and Shakespeare is a bit sparse on direction - when Marc Antony is repeating again and again that Brutus and Cassius are honorable men, is he being sincere or blatantly sarcastic, or both? Obviously, he using it to entice the people gradually into outrage against Brutus, and he eventually incites them essentially into a riot - I was wondering how you think those lines would be best delivered?"

[*g* Most of my memorization is Much Ado About Nothing. I used to recite it to myself to keep from getting bored walking to and from school :) "Sigh no more, lady, sigh no more, men were decievers ever, one foot in sea and one on shore, to one thing constant never. So sigh not so, but let them go, and be you blithe and bonny, converting all your sounds of woe into 'hey nonny nonny!'" As for the history plays, my favorite (so far) has to be Henry V. "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother - " and, um, I can't remember the next part :( ]

Chuckling, Geoff assures Kiki that if she doesn't want to take the class, he isn't going to force the issue.

"I would say you really want to consider that Antony is doing a bit of both. The words themselves -- remember, this is really an elegy that he's delivering -- I would think you'd want to deliver in a sincere manner. So that no one could point fingers and accuse you of speaking out against someone as popular as Brutus was at that time. But...the meaning is obviously sarcastic. He's calling Brutus 'honorable', but pointing out dishonorable deeds. And eventually, the crowd begins to see the meaning behind what Antony is saying. With the added benefit that Antony and his supporters can claim, until they have the power they need, that he never said anything wrong. It's the repetition, I think, that really drives the meaning home."

[ooc: *glees over teh Shakespeare love!*]

Kiki nods ~~and totally doesn't imagine Paul Bettany playing Marc Antony as her mun is doing now~~, and a tiny mischeivous smile creeps over her face. "So, being a witch, a diviner, and a non-Christian, I'm headed to the eighth circle of hell," she says. "Where did Dante put you?"

Geoff cocks his head, answering her smile with a wry grin of his own, although the look in his eyes is serious.

"Have you done the reading for today's class yet?"

[OMG! He would be so perfect!]

[*runs to check the course list* *has read it, woot!*]

"Faust? I've got a page or two left, but I'm close to done. I have to say...mortal making a deal with a demon to get what they want? Goethe could have been writing about a good percentage of this whole town."

[*points at shiny new icon* A wicked cool friend gave me that!]

[ooc: Oh, to HECK with the html!]

Geoff nods. "What ring of Dante's hell do you think that would put a person in, if they did that? Made a deal with the Devil?"

[ooc: *giggles and hugs*]

Propping her chin on her hand, Kiki thinks out loud. "Virtuous non-believer - hardly. Not lust, or gluttony... Possibly level 4, with the avaricious. Wrathful. Heretics, then the murderers, theives, and suicides, and then the magicians, hypocrites and seducers on level 8. Last the traitors..."

She scratches her head. "Ordinarily, I'd say Faust would be punished on level 8, but that because he needed magic to conjure the demon he was dealing with. But as for the deal itself? The natural assumption would be that the deal was made out of the desire to want something, so level 4 for the avarice. But it seems like it would be a much graver sin than that - perhaps the 6th level, for the belief that the Devil would provide what God could not or would not. Dante has it all very neat and orderly, but he doesn't take certain things into account - like someone I know made a deal with a demon to protect someone she loved, out of a pure desire of wanting to help. Why should she be punished for that? Demons are trickier than Dante gives them credit for being. I don't think he knew any personally, or he'd have had something to say about it."

[Annnnd bedtime for KikiMun :) Pick this up tomorrow? You have no idea (well, actually, you probably do) how much I heart Kiki's independent study here! *grin*]

Nodding solemnly as he listens to Kiki's answer, Geoff raises his eyebrow at the bit about her having a friend who who made a deal over someone she loved.

"I'd say that's a good deal more honorable than someone who makes a deal over, say...something like a gambling debt. So...you think intentions should matter more than Dante takes into account? For instance, the person who deals with the Devil to protect someone should suffer less -- if at all -- than the person who made the deal out of greed and stupidity?"

The seriousness of his tone might be an indication that Geoff has a more personal agenda for this discussion than one would assume from the subject matter.

[Yes, bedtime for Geoff!mun as well. I'll be around tomorrow during the day, but AFK in the evening. And I totally heart Kiki's IS sessions! *g*]

"Well..." Kiki thinks this over, "They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and a lot of people whine the excuse 'I didn't intend to' to avoid taking responsibility for something. Dante seems to say that intent never matters, only the deed and the outcome, but it seems harsh to judge one who was acting on someone else's behalf as the same as someone motivated by lust or avarice, like Faust. But stupidity? I don't think that's a sin yet."

Kiki purses her lips. "However, Christianity, from what I've seen, is a harsh religion. I thought it was supposed to be about love, but then it's filled with violence and hate and so very little forgiveness. Or," she adds, "I'm just miffed that when I die I'm going to be thrown into a stone hole full of poo while my feet are set on fire and I'm surrounded by snakes that tear my body apart. Thanks, Dante."

Geoff laughs at Kiki's response, nodding in agreement. "I think I agree with pretty much everything you've said, Kiki. Dante is pretty much presenting the general attitude of the Church officially toward sin and sinners. I think it's interesting how these attitudes change over time, though."

He rubs the back of his neck and grins. "Did you have any other questions?"

Kiki's face grows a little more solemn and thoughtful. "Do you think Dante is right? Political motivation and allegory aside, do you think that people really do only have one chance to get it right and that's what waits for the ones who make a mistake? What if that really is what's in store?"

"I don't believe Dante was right. I believe that motivations and intentions are very important. Just because a man bears the office of churchman, doesn't mean he's righteous. And just because a young lady doesn't attend the services I would attend, doesn't make her any less worthy than me. I don't think you have anything to worry about, Kiki. We definitely get more than one chance. I think our entire life is a series of chances to get things right."

She nods as she mulls this opinion over. "True...I've read about plenty of popes who resorted to some highly un-christian deeds to stay in power, so titles certainly don't mean much, nor do simple claims of holiness. I don't understand the fascination, though. Why would people cling to such a faith that's so full of hypocrisy and say that it makes them better than someone else, like Dante does?"

Kiki starts talking more animatedly as she warms to her topic. "I mean, there's a sense all the way through Dante's journey that he is looking down on the people being punished, especially the political enemies he includes, and that by the virtue of Beatrice helping him he's more worthy of heaven than all the people who don't have someone helping them or some heavenly advocate. And the whole way he's horrified but he's also almost sneering at those who are being punished - God doesn't forgive them, so why should he? What a selfish and arrogant viewpoint! And this is what people are supposed to learn from it? I don't think Dante was ever truly close to death before he wrote this, or else I think he'd have a less hubric view of mortality and what he imagines comes after. Because I didn't see anything like this when I was -"

Kiki breaks off, flushes, and finishes lamely, "- when I, um, imagine what the next world would be like. I think."

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