fandomhigh | Professor Chaucer's Office Hours, Monday

[*runs to check the course list* *has read it, woot!*]

"Faust? I've got a page or two left, but I'm close to done. I have to say...mortal making a deal with a demon to get what they want? Goethe could have been writing about a good percentage of this whole town."

[*points at shiny new icon* A wicked cool friend gave me that!]

[ooc: Oh, to HECK with the html!]

Geoff nods. "What ring of Dante's hell do you think that would put a person in, if they did that? Made a deal with the Devil?"

[ooc: *giggles and hugs*]

Propping her chin on her hand, Kiki thinks out loud. "Virtuous non-believer - hardly. Not lust, or gluttony... Possibly level 4, with the avaricious. Wrathful. Heretics, then the murderers, theives, and suicides, and then the magicians, hypocrites and seducers on level 8. Last the traitors..."

She scratches her head. "Ordinarily, I'd say Faust would be punished on level 8, but that because he needed magic to conjure the demon he was dealing with. But as for the deal itself? The natural assumption would be that the deal was made out of the desire to want something, so level 4 for the avarice. But it seems like it would be a much graver sin than that - perhaps the 6th level, for the belief that the Devil would provide what God could not or would not. Dante has it all very neat and orderly, but he doesn't take certain things into account - like someone I know made a deal with a demon to protect someone she loved, out of a pure desire of wanting to help. Why should she be punished for that? Demons are trickier than Dante gives them credit for being. I don't think he knew any personally, or he'd have had something to say about it."

[Annnnd bedtime for KikiMun :) Pick this up tomorrow? You have no idea (well, actually, you probably do) how much I heart Kiki's independent study here! *grin*]

Nodding solemnly as he listens to Kiki's answer, Geoff raises his eyebrow at the bit about her having a friend who who made a deal over someone she loved.

"I'd say that's a good deal more honorable than someone who makes a deal over, say...something like a gambling debt. So...you think intentions should matter more than Dante takes into account? For instance, the person who deals with the Devil to protect someone should suffer less -- if at all -- than the person who made the deal out of greed and stupidity?"

The seriousness of his tone might be an indication that Geoff has a more personal agenda for this discussion than one would assume from the subject matter.

[Yes, bedtime for Geoff!mun as well. I'll be around tomorrow during the day, but AFK in the evening. And I totally heart Kiki's IS sessions! *g*]

"Well..." Kiki thinks this over, "They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and a lot of people whine the excuse 'I didn't intend to' to avoid taking responsibility for something. Dante seems to say that intent never matters, only the deed and the outcome, but it seems harsh to judge one who was acting on someone else's behalf as the same as someone motivated by lust or avarice, like Faust. But stupidity? I don't think that's a sin yet."

Kiki purses her lips. "However, Christianity, from what I've seen, is a harsh religion. I thought it was supposed to be about love, but then it's filled with violence and hate and so very little forgiveness. Or," she adds, "I'm just miffed that when I die I'm going to be thrown into a stone hole full of poo while my feet are set on fire and I'm surrounded by snakes that tear my body apart. Thanks, Dante."

Geoff laughs at Kiki's response, nodding in agreement. "I think I agree with pretty much everything you've said, Kiki. Dante is pretty much presenting the general attitude of the Church officially toward sin and sinners. I think it's interesting how these attitudes change over time, though."

He rubs the back of his neck and grins. "Did you have any other questions?"

Kiki's face grows a little more solemn and thoughtful. "Do you think Dante is right? Political motivation and allegory aside, do you think that people really do only have one chance to get it right and that's what waits for the ones who make a mistake? What if that really is what's in store?"

"I don't believe Dante was right. I believe that motivations and intentions are very important. Just because a man bears the office of churchman, doesn't mean he's righteous. And just because a young lady doesn't attend the services I would attend, doesn't make her any less worthy than me. I don't think you have anything to worry about, Kiki. We definitely get more than one chance. I think our entire life is a series of chances to get things right."

She nods as she mulls this opinion over. "True...I've read about plenty of popes who resorted to some highly un-christian deeds to stay in power, so titles certainly don't mean much, nor do simple claims of holiness. I don't understand the fascination, though. Why would people cling to such a faith that's so full of hypocrisy and say that it makes them better than someone else, like Dante does?"

Kiki starts talking more animatedly as she warms to her topic. "I mean, there's a sense all the way through Dante's journey that he is looking down on the people being punished, especially the political enemies he includes, and that by the virtue of Beatrice helping him he's more worthy of heaven than all the people who don't have someone helping them or some heavenly advocate. And the whole way he's horrified but he's also almost sneering at those who are being punished - God doesn't forgive them, so why should he? What a selfish and arrogant viewpoint! And this is what people are supposed to learn from it? I don't think Dante was ever truly close to death before he wrote this, or else I think he'd have a less hubric view of mortality and what he imagines comes after. Because I didn't see anything like this when I was -"

Kiki breaks off, flushes, and finishes lamely, "- when I, um, imagine what the next world would be like. I think."

It's obvious Kiki is taking the topic very seriously, and Geoff leans his elbow on his desk and listens carefully.

"There are a couple ways to answer your question, Kiki. First, I think a lot of people are willing to overlook hypocracy in their religion in favor of the positive things they get from it. Or, in some cases, their faith is strong enough that they hope to be able to change the negative aspects of the religion. And make no mistake, the Church is a political being, and all political entities have corruption. It's a sad truth, but the more we can do to be aware of the corruption and hypocracy, the better we can root it out."

Smiling, he continues, "Remember also that the religion has to be filtered through the interpretation of men. And we're failable. Honestly, we fail most of the time. But as flawed as our understanding is, if we can get some small hope, something that makes our lives better, then I think the religion is doing its job. And if you, by reading Dante, got a better understanding of both a religion you weren't raised in, and were motivated to think about some topics maybe you weren't really considering before, then I think he's done his job as well."

[ooc: Sorry about the lag. Hoping the brain works better today. Maybe the not-muppet chicken soup has helped. :) ]

"Thinking, yes - better understanding, I'm less certain about," Kiki answers. "I guess my real question would be: what is the purpose of organized religion?"

Geoff takes a minute to think before he answers. "Two things, I think. First of all, it provides a social structure. People need to be told that what they're doing, the way they're doing it, is correct. Organized religion provides a set of social codes that are tied to faith and morality, which makes people much likelier to follow them. Look at what Dante wrote: it's not just about God and how you worship. Nearly all of the sins he lists are related to the way you act, the way you treat other people.

"And second, I think the majority of people are more comfortable in their worship if they know they aren't alone, and can share their beliefs with other people. I think, again, it reinforces the idea that they're doing things the 'right' way."

[ooc: You are evil, making a person who doesn't believe in organized religion defend organized religion!]

"So," Kiki reasons, her brows drawing together slightly, "then, it's for the weak, right? It's for those who have no inborn sense of responsibility or morality, or who constantly need to be reassured and have those things confirmed and validated for them. I think I can see how it can be comforting to not have to take personal responsibility for any of your actions. And... then those few who do have some sense of leadership can exploit the unquestioning following of the faithful force their own moral code onto everyone else."

Kiki nods slowly. "Better to be wrong and comfortable among the faithful than be right and a pariah. I think I'm starting to get it."

[ooc: *is way guilty* I don't believe in it either ;-) Because that's not totally obvious here.]

"Well...I think you're seeing things a little too...black and white. Organized religion has alot to offer, even for people who are strong in their faith, and who have a good sense of morality. Look at it this way -- even if you don't agree with what the religion says, it provides you with information, and ideas, that you can use to develop and enhance your own beliefs. And no one's faith is formed without outside influence, you have to learn the basic tenets of what you believe from someplace, even if you end up altering them for your needs. Plus, organized religion isn't just about interacting with God, it's also about interacting with the people around you. You form social connections through it as well, and in a lot of cases religion can be used to spread and strengthen social codes."

After a pause, he adds, "And you're from a time when the majority of people are literate. Where I come from, most aren't. So in many ways, interaction within the Church is the only way for them to learn."

[ooc: That's odd, because I'd gotten the sense you might belong to some fundamentalist sect. *g*]

"Now that," Kiki answers sincerely, "actually makes more sense. It's too bad, though, that so often it seems to go too far, into intolerance and rivalry. Or persecution. It's a good goal, to use an institution such as organized religion to help people learn, but there would have to be some care taken over what the lessons taught actually were."

[ooc: Actually, when I'm not on FH, I spend most of my spare time barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

And I think this time I heard the actually sound of the chalk on the board that tallies the reasons why I'm headed straight to hell. *snerk*]

Nodding his agreement, Geoff replies, "And ideally, there is. But as I said before, the people who are controlling the religion, what it teaches and how its lesson are taught, are only human. And power, unfortunately, corrupts even those are supposed to have a greater moral compass than the rest of us."

He grins at Kiki. "Intelligent people, like you, can usually see through the hypocrisy and the intolerance, to the real lessons underneath. And a lot of those people also devote time to trying to change what's wrong."

[ooc: Wanna carpool?]

Kiki smiles. "Will those people have any luck at it, do you think?"

[ooc: Sure. Maybe Crowley will lend us the Bentley?]

Chuckling a little, Geoff shrugs. "I like to think so. I've been known to dabble in it a time or two myself -- the trying to change things part, not the religious orders part."

He grins. "Does that help at all? I have to say, I've often taken up the part of satirizing the Church, but I've never been put in the position of defending it before."

[ooc: We could probably get him to chauffeur us.]

"It does, actually," Kiki nods thoughtfully. She cracks an amused grin. "Well, you know what they say, education is all about stretching your boundaries and stepping outside your comfort zone and challenging your ideas. I think I might have missed a buzzword or two in there, but I'm sure you know what I mean."

[ooc: Ooo, and Queen to listen to the whole way, too.]

"I know exactly what you mean," Geoff laughs. "And I've probably learned more from teaching here than my students have learned from taking my classes."

He leans back in his chair again. "So...I think we've pretty adequately covered religion. Any other questions about the readings?"

"We seem to have gotten pretty far afield from Dr. Faust," Kiki comments, looking down at the cover of the book. "But I can't think of any other questions I have."

"Not as far as you might think...after all, Faust deals with issues of sin and damnation too."

Geoff smiles, although the smile is just a little bit sad. "I've really been enjoying these study sessions, Kiki. I hope you've gotten half of what I have from them."

Kiki is curious about the faint melancholy air, but she adds sincerely, "Oh, I have too! Thank you so much for letting me take this as independent study! I can't wait to see what you offer next semester."

[ooc: Oh yes, so deliberate.]

The smile doesn't go away, although his gazes drops momentarily to the floor. "You're welcome, Kiki. It's really been my pleasure," he says sincerely.

"I'll see you tomorrow in poetry class. You get a reprieve for next week, since there's no class, but I expect you to be ready the week after for a good long discussion on Frankenstein."

[ooc: Eeeeeeevil.]

Professor Chaucer's Office Hours, Monday

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