Ethics Class, Monday, 2-4pm

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Over the course of this term, we've looked a lot at your personal moral stance on things. Today we're going to be looking more generally - on how morals are taught to children, often insidiously.

"A good medium for this is fairy tales. Every culture has them - stories that are told to children, bearing little moral gems to shape and guide. The first thing I want you to do is a select a fairy tale. Don't worry if it's not one I'll know, just pick one you're familiar with."

Comments

First Hour

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Okay. Got your fairy tale? Good. Now, pick it apart. What are the ethical concerns and considerations. What messages are actually being taught to children?

"To give you an example of what I mean - Goldilocks breaks into someone's house. She steals their food and destroys their belongings. And yet, she's the heroine of the story, the one that children are supposed to identify with. There are two possible messages that could be told here. One is that a hungry person in need of succour can take refuge anywhere, and that the normal laws of society are waived in such an instance. The other is that courteous behaviour is not required to those who are less than human.

"So what about yours? What does your fairy tale actually say?"

Re: First Hour

[defiantlyyours.livejournal.com]

"I've always found Cinderella to be quite distasteful. Here's a young girl enslaved by her stepmother and stepsisters, forced to do all sorts of manual labor, and what is the solution of the tale? To sell her into more opulent slavery using a glass slipper as a bartering tool. Disgusting."

Re: First Hour

[soldtoarmenians]

"Hansel and Gretel - aside from being really, really ugly kids in real life? - were kind of greedy little brats too. Granted, in the story they fell into a trap, and the witch was hoping they'd eat her house. But she wasn't entirely out of line in saying they were rude for doing it, and taking it out of Gretel's hide in housework. The plans to eat them might be a bit overboard though.

It's got the same thing about laws not applying if you're hungry that Goldilocks does, but since it's candy and they pretty much make pigs of themselves, they're not exactly that guy from Les Miserables. It also seems to teach kids that if somebody sets up a situation where you can act like a jerk, then it's not your fault if you fall for it, even if you know better."

Re: First Hour

[chasingangela]

"I guess in Snow White, the message is ... I don't know, stepmothers are evil? Um. No, I guess it's that -- family is where you find it, you can't judge people by how they look, and then something kind of sexist about women needing to be saved all the time or not really being, like, alive until they fall in love."

Re: First Hour

[kawalsky.livejournal.com]

Bluebeard. It's about obedience and having to deal with the consequences of your actions if you step over boundaries. Like the wife in Bluebeard unlocked the door she wasn't supposed to unlock, and then she couldn't get the blood off the key, so Bluebeard knew she'd done it. You can't escape your own actions. In the end, though, Bluebeard had to die because, even though he thought he was just punishing his wives for disobedience, he still slaughtered women, so he couldn't get away with it in the end. But the point wasn't that the wife got away with her disobedience, but that bad things *could* happen if you're disobedient, so it's better not to take your chances.

Re: First Hour

[allie-cameron.livejournal.com]

"Little Red Riding Hood always kind of offended me because I don't think anyone would be that stupid."

Re: First Hour

[apocalypsesoon.livejournal.com]

"Well," John started, "There's the raven and the woodpecker, or something like that. A long-billed bird and a short-billed bird are presented with a narrow vase of water. The two birds are thirsty and only the long-billed bird can reach the water. The long-billed bird laughs at the short-billed bird until the short-billed bird starts putting stones in the vase, enough stones so that the displaced water reaches the top and the short-billed bird can drink."

He exhales. "Here you have a bully, a nerd, and some idiot that leaves water in vases. And the moral is, I guess, that if you don't have the natural ability to do something, you've gotta be crafty to get the same thing done. And that snotty people suck."

"And the mun couldn't find a robot related one, dammit!"

Re: First Hour

[mycanonhatesme]

"Well, Sleeping Beauty isn't so bad, I don't think. She's the victim of abuse from her stepmother...or maybe I'm getting that mixed up with Cinderella? Or Snow White? They all have abusive stepmothers, really. But Sleeping Beauty gets cursed with a curse that can only be broken by true love's kiss." Chloe makes a face. "I guess it's actually saying that love can conquer anything, even decades-long curses? Like I said, I don't think that fairy tale is so bad."

Re: First Hour

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

Angel thought about it. "Rapunzel seems to suggest that all girls need to do is sit and look pretty and wait for some guy to come rescue them."

Re: First Hour

[wannabelawyer.livejournal.com]

"Rumpelstiltskin kind of taught kids that lying and trickery and paying people off are the ways to succeed in life. The girl and her dad lie about her being able to spin straw into gold so she can go marry the king, and then she pays off the little guy to do it for her and barters her non-existent kid for it, and then she backs out of the deal and uses everything she's got to find out his name. And then he tears himself to bits, which is just kind of creepy. It's like, hey kids, lie about everything and sell your offspring and everything will turn out great!"

Re: First Hour

[miss-monochrome.livejournal.com]

Well, I dunno any from my people, but you guys have this "Jack and the Beanstalk" story. Where some...some frelling stupid kid trades his animal for some beans that are apparently magic or something, which says that stupidity is...is rewarded or somethin'. Then he makes friends with this really tall lady just so he can steal her stuff and kill her husband. And he's the good guy I think. So...so I think it's saying that as long as you can get away with it, stealing's good. And murder too, I guess.

Re: First Hour

[stykera]

"There was one about a frog. The Frog Prince. The princess in the story is horrible to the frog, even though he helped her. Foul woman. And then he turned out to be a prince, but she didn't know that until she tried to kill him. She's rewarded for being wicked. He marries her. I think it is supposed to show that you cannot judge by appearances, but really it's showing that someone is not worthy of consideration unless they are beautiful."

Second Hour

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Bringing moral development back to you - because this is our last session, and ultimately this course has always been about you, the individual. Lawrence Kohlberg suggested six categories of moral justification. I want you to put yourself into one of them."

Tara gestures to the board. "Here is your scenario."

A woman is near death from a unique kind of cancer. There is a drug that might save her. The drug costs $4,000 per dosage. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money and tried every legal means, but he could only get together about $2,000. He asked the doctor scientist who discovered the drug for a discount or let him pay later. But the doctor scientist refused.
Should Heinz break into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?

"Please not that your reasons are far, far more important than whether you decide he should or not."

Re: Second Hour

[apocalypsesoon.livejournal.com]

"Probably not. There's no guarantee that he'd steal the right drug or administer the right dosage. He could even kill her trying to play doctor with the wrond drug and/or the wrong dosage, and then he'd be up a creek. Possibly for murder, even."
can't he just ues his ketchup-y powers to save her?

Re: Second Hour

[defiantlyyours.livejournal.com]

"Most likely the doctor scientist is under the employ of the dastardly HMO conglomerate, and therefore any act the man takes to ensure freedom from sickness on behalf of his wife is within reason and just."

Re: Second Hour

[soldtoarmenians]

"Assuming the doctor didn't refuse because he thought the treatment wouldn't work on her, I'd say yeah, the husband should raid the place. Maybe he should take it like a man if he ends up going to jail for it, but his wife's life is more important."

Re: Second Hour

[chasingangela]

"I think he should. A human life is worth way more than $4,000, and even if he gets caught, he'll have saved his wife. This is like what we were talking about last week, there theft is sometimes .... not wrong, but unfair. Stealing the drug may be unfair, but letting the woman die is actually wrong."

Re: Second Hour

[kawalsky.livejournal.com]

"So long as he knows what he's doing and knows what will happen to him if he does it, and he accepts that, then yeah he should do it. It could save his wife. If he's willing to go to jail for that, then he should do it. Saving people you care about is more important than self-preservation. It might deprive the scientist of money, but if it's $4000 per dosage the scientist can afford to go without for this once."

Re: Second Hour

[mycanonhatesme]

"I think he should, if only for the chance to possibly save his wife. It's horrible for the doctor to be so unreasonable about the payment, and if he isn't willing to try to help, he shouldn't be a doctor in the first place."

Re: Second Hour

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

"I would break into that lab and steal the drugs," Angel said, "but that's because saving someone I love is more important to me than helping that guy's business. I know he and his family need the money too, but there's other ways he can get that cash. Seems to me like this scenario is presenting only one way to save the wife."

Re: Second Hour

[wannabelawyer.livejournal.com]

"Any chance to save somebody you love, you should take it. Sure, in an ideal world you shouldn't steal, but drug companies shouldn't be charging more than people can afford either. Life's important. A hell of a lot more important than any consequences you might face for stealing. Even if it doesn't end up working, at least you tried. Heinz should definitely steal the drug."

Re: Second Hour

[miss-monochrome.livejournal.com]

::thinks:: Well. If nothin' else, then ya if she's gonna die without it, he should. Her life's worth more than some currency. But there's always the chance with that, that he'd mess her up more since he's not a doctor or anythin'. Probably would be a better idea to steal the *money*, pay the doctor, and get her treated safely.

Second Hour - unpacking it

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Okay, now you've got your answer, let's analyse it. Put yourself into one of the following categories. Please remember that it's your justification, not your answer, that fits you into a category."

Tara passes around a handout, containing the following information:

Stage one - obedience. Individuals focus on the direct consequences that their actions will have for themselves. For example, Heinz should not steal the medicine, because he will consequently be put in prison.

Stage two - self interest. Right behavior is defined by what is in one's own best interest. Interest in the needs of others are limited to "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." For example, Heinz should steal the medicine, because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, even if he will have to serve a prison sentence.

Stage three - conformity: Individuals are receptive of approval or disapproval from other people. They try to be a good boy or good girl having learned that there is inherent value in doing so. For example, Heinz should steal the medicine, because his wife expects it.

Stafe four - law and order. It is important to obey the laws and social conventions because of its importance to maintaining a working society. Moral reasoning in stage four is thus beyond the need for approval exhibited in stage three, because the individual understands that society needs to transcend individual needs. For example, Heinz should not steal the medicine, because the law prohibits stealing.

Stage five - human rights. Persons have certain principles to which they may attach more value than laws, such as human rights or social justice. In this reasoning, actions are wrong if they violate these ethical principles. Laws are regarded as social contracts rather than dictums, and must be changed when necessary (provided there is agreement). For example, Heinz should steal the medicine, because everyone has a right to live, regardless of the law. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because the scientist has a right to fair compensation.

Stage six - universal sentient ethics. Moral reasoning is based on the use of abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. One way to do this is by imagining oneself in everyone else's shoes, imagining what they would decide if they were doing the same. For example, Heinz should steal the medicine, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person. Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because that violates the golden rule of honesty and respect.

"I want you to indentify where you are now - and where you'd like to be. That's all. Hand in your answers and any thoughts that generates, and you've finished this course. Grades will be posted next Monday."

Re: Second Hour - unpacking it

[defiantlyyours.livejournal.com]

"I am at Stage Five and I prefer to stay there, thank you. Freedom from bondage of the body, mind, and spirit is paramount. All else is a secondary consideration."

Emo Closet

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Here if you need it, as always.

OOC Discussion

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Last class!