fandomhigh | Ethics [Tuesday, September 27, 2011, 1st period]

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Ethics [Tuesday, September 27, 2011, 1st period]

"Good morning, class," Anakin said, sweeping into the classroom and taking up his usual position of leaning against his desk at the front. "Today we learn about Immanuel Kant," he began, gesturing to the TAs to hand out information on the man. "He was an influential German philosopher on this planet several hundred years ago who thought every action should have pure intention behind it; otherwise it was meaningless. He did not necessarily believe that the final result was the most important aspect of an action, but that how the person felt while carrying out the action was the time at which value was set to the result."

In his mind, Anakin could hear Obi-Wan nattering on about how many of the truths people cling to depending upon their point of view. He shook his head to clear it and continued. "In other words, it's not the results that make something moral but why you made that decision, and Kant believed that only decisions made purely out of duty have moral worth. For instance, Kant spoke of a shopkeeper who passed up the chance to shortchange a customer only because his business might suffer if other customers found out. According to Kant, the shopkeeper’s action had no moral worth because he did the right thing for the wrong reason."

He paced the room. "What do you think of Kant's conclusion? Is he being too hard on that shopkeeper? What of people who are in the habit of being good without thinking? Is that being moral, or just being conditioned to interact correctly with society?"

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"Is Kant being too hard on the shopkeeper?" and "What about people who are in the habit of being good without thinking: is that being moral, or just being conditioned to interact correctly with society?"

Pick one and answer it!

"Nice guys finish last," Nathan said eloquently. "That bloke can be as nice as he wants, can follow all of the weird ass rules of society and he's still not gonna get ahead in life. It's just gonna show people that they can use him and walk all over him like a doormat. It's not being bloody moral. It's leaving yourself open to becoming a well used tool."

"So should the shopkeeper have shortchanged the customer, then?" Anakin asked.

"Why not?" Nathan retorted, shrugging. "Would the customer have cried tears of absolute sadness if he'd been shortchanged? Life's too freaking short to whine over everything."

"We're all conditioned to interact correctly with society," Peter said. He wasn't exactly mister Participates Much In Class, but he felt twigged to response to this one. "That's where concepts like right and wrong come from. Kant's working off this idea that there's an absolute set of values, or at least that people can keep to absolute values, and ignores the influence culture has on what we even perceive as right and wrong."

Mind, it might be because he had a bit of a stake in this thing where he hoped people weren't inherently good or bad or anything, because if they were, he was all kinds of doomed.

"Why spurn someone for their motivations in a case like that, when even our spurning comes from something society put into our minds about the way everyone else should behave, and the outcome is beneficial?" he asked. "Hell, even in the case of someone doing what Kant believes is 'good', you could still argue that they're simply doing what their conditioning demands of them - to interact correctly with their morals in a certain way, lest god or decency strike them down."

Anakin nodded. "I think Kant boxed himself into a bit of a corner on this."

"It seems to me," said Rosella, after a while, having made a determined decision on the matter, "that this Kant fellow is being a bit silly. One almost wonders if perhaps he has experienced someone doing what he thought was a nice gesture for him, only to discover that the motives behind the action had little to do with being nice to Kant, and more to do with something else entirely. I think the shopkeeper was being both kind and sensible, all in one, and that's efficient, if you ask me. Doing good, for whatever reason, is still doing good, and that should certainly count for something."

"I agree," Anakin said, nodding. "The idea that doing good because it comes easily doesn't count as being morally upstanding seems a bit ridiculous to me."

"Well, I don't really think we're *born* knowing the difference between right and wrong, right?" Toby wondered. "So like Peter said, we're all conditioned to some degree. The people who do good 'without thinking' have made a decision to adhere to that social conditioning, even if it wasn't a conscious decision, because they accepted those values and made them their own. It's when you do think about it that maybe it isn't as moral, because you're weighing the consequences of being caught doing something wrong against the benefit to yourself if you don't get caught. And maybe you do the 'right' thing because you've been conditioned by society that that's what acceptable, even though you don't really want to."

Edited 2011-09-27 19:50 (UTC)

Anakin smiled. "I have a two year old at home. Trust me, you have to teach them everything starting from not poking themselves in the eye. I'm not exactly sure what Kant meant by duty, since to me that word has always meant I was feeling slightly put upon..."

"I think doing the right thing always counts," Juliet offered. "Even if it's just because the wrong thing doesn't occur to you, if you were a bad person you'd think of doing the wrong thing, wouldn't you?"

"Generally," Anakin agreed with a tiny smile. "Normal people don't tend to think up torture devices or ways to kick puppies."

Sorry, Peter.

Kenzi was frowning, a little offended. "The dude followed the rules. Why bitch at him because he wasn't feeling all pure about it?" She slouched down in her seat. "Why judge somebody because they don't find it easy to follow the rules, and be all conformist and agree about how to behave?"

"It seems harmless when we're talking about something small like overcharging a customer," Toby said. "But what if someone 'follows the rules' by not stabbing the guy who bumps in to him in the subway, even though he's really tempted to?"

"Well, then he should get big points for not doing that," Kenzi said, tilting her head. "And, you know, therapy. 'Cause that kind of thinking can go toxic."

"I guess I'd rather have someone do the right thing, even if it is for the 'wrong' reason," Mercy said. "Some people seem to need that external reason to keep them from doing bad things."

Anakin nodded. "So Kant's standard is too high?"

Mercy shrugged. "I don't know about too high. Everyone's free to set their standards wherever they want. But I think if the only people he considers good are ones who are totally altruistic, he's probably doomed to a life of a lot of disappointment."

"I figure doing the right thing without thinking is fine," Richie said. "At least you're still doing the right thing. Maybe it's not totally moral, but it's not immoral. And everybody's got an ulterior motive for doing things at least some of the time, even if they don't know it. Doing the right thing for bad reasons," like say, taking in foster kids to get the money or worse, "that's definitely on the immoral side of things."

"I agree," Anakin said. "I've known a lot of people and I can't think of one who was always doing things because of duty."

Maybe Obi-Wan, up until the end.

"I think it's a subconscious action due to upbringing. You teach people to do it when they're young, and usually they just grow up and do it without thinking."

He grinned. "And then there are those who rebel against those teachings and do whatever they feel right."

Anakin arched his eyebrows up. "And how do you think the second group turn out?"

"I think they end up split into two groups. The ones who do relatively harmless things for funs, pranksters and partiers. The other group..." he trailed off and shrugged.

"Usually end up in prison."

Annie was maybe not the best person to be talking about Kant, really. He'd have issues with her.

"A lot of people would just shortchange the customer and say it was a mistake if anything got around about it. Just because he didn't do it for the most unselfish reason shouldn't mean it doesn't matter that he didn't cheat someone. Wow, that was a lot of negatives in that sentence," she said. "If someone has a chance to do something bad and they don't, they should count for something."

"So doing something good for selfish reasons is better than not doing the good at all?" Anakin checked.

Re: Answer the discussion questions! [9/27]

annieadderall.livejournal.com - 2011-09-28 02:15 (UTC) - Expand

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