fandomhigh | Nation Building and the Origin of Government, Period 5, Class 6, Thursday, 2-10

Alex wasn't late. She was on time. But it felt as though she was late, because she prided herself on being punctual.

Blame the bizarre monkey-creature who had been humping her leg at the Perk.

"So," she began, briskly, as she walked into the room. "Last week, we picked a currency. This week, we're going to talk about taxes. You can decide to not have any taxes, but then the government will be broke, and a government without any money is a government that can't fund itself and therefore can't do anything. So if you're going the no-tax route, either explain why you've chosen to dissolve the government, or how you intend to pay for anything your government intends to do."

She pulled her coat off as she talked, switching the cup she was holding from one hand to the other so she didn't spill it while she slipped her arms out. Once her coat was off, it was going to be tossed haphazardly on the seat behind her desk.

"There are a number of ways to assign taxes," she continued. "Income is a popular option. You tax a percentage of what everyone makes this year. A few difficulties: number one, people will hide income from you by being paid 'under the table.' Number two, this leads to inequity. Someone who inherits several million from their parents, and therefore doesn't need to work, also won't pay any taxes, as they have no income. Should inheritances be considered income? There are difficulties with that, as well."

Alex was now leaning against the front of her desk, and dunking a bag of tea into her cup. Other people drank coffee, when they were in a rush; other people weren't Alex.

"We can also tax purchases," she continued. "Assign, for example, six percent on top of the price of anything, and that money goes to the state. Of course, that means we're getting the same six percent from a gallon of milk as we are a deluxe yacht. Do we want to exempt necessities, like food? Clothing? Do we want to increase the tax on luxury items? If so, how do we determine what is a luxury, and what isn't? Do we also want to institute 'sin' taxes, on items we'd like to discourage the purchase of? Alcohol, or cigarettes, for example?

"We can assign taxes based on properties, as well, although that may disincline people to purchase property, and that's generally something the government likes to encourage. In that case, we can introduce exemptions directly into the code itself. For example, the United States tax code is an income tax base, but you can claim deductions if you have dependent children, or if you've given to charity, or even on the payment of a mortgage."

Alex sipped her tea -- a little too hot, and the flavor hadn't fully dispersed yet, but it still was much nicer than having no tea at all, this morning. "It's far more complicated than that," she said, "as well it should be, if we'd like for a system to be fair. And fairness will get the greatest compliance out of people. Although non-compliance will be another thorn in our side, so we'll need a department to sort out taxes and enforce their payment -- yet another department to fund, which is why we need taxes in the first place. So. Let's discuss taxes."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"Where I'm from," Alexander offered, "people work hard for what they have. To add extra restraints on those things by taxing them just seems unjust."

"Are you talking about luxury taxes, or sales taxes altogether?" Alex asked. "The former aren't intended to punish the wealthy, but to ask them to support more of the burden than the poor."

"If I am understanding them," Alexander said carefully, "I don't believe any taxes, luxury or otherwise, should be necessary. A government should not depend on its people to carry them; they should be carrying the people."

"A government without any funds isn't a government at all," Alex countered. "If we'd like to have public education, roads, a police force, or any activities carried out by the government, we'll need money to do it. Tax is how a government funds itself, so that it can carry the people. If you're arguing for less government intervention, that's fine, and it's a popular cause among some people. But at the far end of the spectrum where there's no money whatsoever, there's also no government."

"A government can procure funds other ways than taxing the people," Alexander offered. "And I've established in previous classes that I am not fond of too much government intervention in general. There are other forms of payment other than currency, as well, and the sorts of governments I am accustomed to tend to be meritocracies. Public education, for example, takes the form of people willing to teach, and we repay them for their services with protection, perhaps lodging or surplus goods offered by the people in support of their government...by choice, not by government mandate."

"And what happens if you don't have enough people willing to volunteer?" Alex said. "I believe most governments would prefer to be funded by the generosity of their people, but very few find it a realistic system in practice. What happens if an area has people who are unwilling to fund the local teachers? Should education in that area be dismissed, then?"

"Of course not," Alexander said. "We should speak with the people of the area and understand why they are unwilling to support such a valuable thing like education, and work to find a solution that might be more amiable to them. If they are completely unable to compromise, then perhaps the nation is better without such people."

"I'm curious," Katniss said, listening to Alexander's views. "Do you really think that people will just work for the love of government? Not a single person would resent that opinion?"

Because she had some practical experience here, and she deeply resented the way her district worked for the Capitol, and the way she, personally, had acted as a sacrifice for that same government, just by their mandate.

Alexander gave a faint smile to that. "I believe that, if the government is good, then, yes, they will. Of course, there cannot be perfect unity, but if there is an evil or something bad, it will be rooted out, because one will only stand for such things for so long. Should my government get to the point where I am resented to the point of needing to be uprooted, then I quite suspect I will be getting what I deserve. If the government works for the people, then what reason would the people have not to return the favor?"

"I think there's a different between 'evil' and 'unrest,'" Katniss said, shaking her head. "Perhaps some will think there's a way for you to improve, or that they wish they were compensated in ways other than feeling good about working for their government. I'm not quite following where anyone's income would come from -- employees of the government, yourself, your advisers. These people have families who can't live on their goodwill."

"Well, no," Alexander agreed, "but the community provides for themselves. A farmer needs cloth, and so he gives the tailor food; the tailor needs food, and so he gives the farmer cloth. If there is an issue or something that should change, I would trust my citizens to tell me, or to at least catch wind of the unrest...I must apologize. I know the world I come from is very small and quaint and so my views might be in line with that, but I have trouble comprehending why there would be unrest if the government is working with the people to ensure that everything they need is provided and everyone works together. Should someone feel they are being slighted or, for whatever reason, does not want to contribute what is expected of them, then that must be handled when it occurs, based on their particular case."

"My world was a lot like that," she volunteered, shrugging. "My district mines coal; another produces texiles, another lumber, and so on. All it takes is a spark of discontent -- maybe the farmer feels that he deserves more cloth than what the tailor gave him. And they might not come forward, but whisper to a neighbor. This is how revolutions are started. One happened in my country seventy-five years ago. This is how I know that as much as I like your system, I think it's inherently flawed because it contradicts human nature."

"Are things better since the revolution?" Alexander asked, tilting his head. "Or worse? If it's worse, another rebellion might come around, and things will fix themselves. Sometimes, it does come in cycles, and perhaps that is good, as well, because human nature desires change. Should a revolution occur, it is probably for a reason."

Nation Building and the Origin of Government, Period 5, Class 6, Thursday, 2-10

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06

Re: Discussion - How We Tax - NAT06