fandomhigh | Great Trials in History, Class #3, Period 5 (7-22)

"Last week," Alex began, "we talked about two very different trials that hinged on the same issue: recanting your life's work when your life itself may hang in the balance. This week, we're going to take a look at two individuals who tried another option entirely -- talking your way out of it."

Alex scooped up chalk and wrote Thomas More on the left side of the chalkboard, then turned back to her students. "Thomas More," she began, "Lord Chancellor of England at a time when the church was undergoing some major upheavals. The King, Henry VIII, had essentially splintered the English church away from the larger Catholic church, and declared himself to be the head of this church. More refused to recognize Henry's authority, which lead to More's arrest and trial.

"More insisted on answering the charges against him. On the charge of speaking treasonously to the king, More said that he had given Henry honest and truthful answers whenever asked his opinion. To do otherwise would make him a flatterer and toady. Another charge was that he had refused to sign a paper agreeing to Henry's authority, while also refusing to give a reason for doing so. The interrogator said that his silence stated his true feelings on the matter, but More countered that, traditionally, silence gives consent. Therefore, he argued, nothing could be taken from his refusal except the assumption that he tacitly agreed.

Alex drew a line on the chalkboard, and on the other side wrote Jeanne d'Arc. "Nearly one hundred years before, Joan of Arc was a peasant girl in France who, after disguising herself as a man, infiltrated the army and led them to some stunning victories in the ongoing war. Joan claimed that the voice of God had compelled her. In a modern court, a defendant claiming to hear the voice of God would receive a psychiatric work-up, but at the time, in France, the charge was heresy.

"The interrogation of Joan of Arc, therefore, hinged on a number of theological questions, ones where the questioners hoped that Joan would say something that might condemn her as a heretic or undermine the rest of her testimony. Instead, she walked a very fine line. When asked if she was in God's grace -- if He Himself approved of her actions, essentially, a question where 'yes' implies blasphemy and 'no' implies sin -- she said, 'If I am not, may God put me there, and if I am, may God keep me there.' Later, when asked if these visions and apparitions hadn't failed her, as she had been taken prisoner, she argued that it must have been God's will for her to be taken prisoner.

Finally, Alex set the chalk down and dusted her hands off. "Both Joan of Arc and Thomas More tried to sidestep the pertinent questions in a way that would let them hold to both their religious convictions and their lives. Unfortunately, this is where we get to the major drawback of this approach. If a governing body wants you dead or discredited this badly, then the trial's not much more than a formality. Both were found guilty and executed."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Cleverly. U is verra smart, bb!

Jonothon Starsmore

Squall Leonhart

Bruce Wayne

Edmund Pevensie

Take notes. Wonder about all these executions for heresy going around.

Squall took notes with a frown on his face. He didn't have much experience with this world's religions, but... well, executing someone for heresy seemed like a stupid idea, unless you cared more about controlling people than the religion itself.

Do you think it ever works? Could it have worked for either of them? If not, was it foolish to try? If so, what might have increased their chances of survival (assuming that's the intended outcome)?

Edited 2010-07-22 19:10 (UTC)

"I doubt anyone who would consider 'heresy' a capital crime is at all concerned with giving people a fair trial," Squall pointed out. "At that point, escape is your only option."

"Socrates could have escaped, but chose not to," Alex said. Sure, that was last week, but why not keep the conversation going? "But he wasn't charged with heresy. So you think theocracies are inherently unfair?"

"All governments are inherently unfair," Squall countered. "But if you don't want an armed revolution on your hands, you're going to have to tolerate dissent instead of punishing it."

"If the outcomes were predetermined - which they surely were - then it can't hurt to try it. Maybe you'll succeed. Maybe your points will be better remembered by history," Bruce said, which he felt was an important point considering they were talking about More and Jeanne. "If you have nothing else to lose, why not make it memorable?"

"If the outcome is predetermined," Alex mused, "why not go out defiantly, insisting your position is right and everyone else is wrong? Or do you think either had a chance at swaying some of the moderates, which might have saved their lives?"

"If it's inevitable, I'd rather go for something unique and thoughtful that could infect the minds of people listening rather than cursing the heavens and allowing people to dismiss my point as a simple heretic's ranting," Bruce said. "Of course, I'd prefer escape to either of those options, if it's at all possible."

And it would be. He'd already trained for escapes.

We've added a third option to last week's debate of whether you personally would choose to recant or be a martyr. Has your answer changed as a result?

"Does trying to weasel out of it ever really work?" Squall asked. He considered thoughtfully. "... I didn't think about escaping, last time," he realized. "Because it wasn't listed as an option. But, really, THAT is the best course of action."

"Do you worry that escape means the government can brand you a coward?" Alex asked.

Squall shrugged. "If I'm already an enemy of the state, how much worse can it get?"

She's here.

Today is totally the kind of day where you just want to go back to sleep.

Great Trials in History, Class #3, Period 5 (7-22)

Sign In - TRI03

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During the Lecture - TRI03

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Discussion #1: The Clever Answers Route - TRI03

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Discussion #2: Alternatives - TRI03

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