Friday Ethics Class #2, 8-10am

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Tara looks excited, as students trickle in, bouncing slightly on the balls of her feet.

"Okay, we've got a lot to get through today. Two announcements to start:

First, Teacher's Assistants have been chosen. I have a carrot - Major K! - and a stick - Angelus. If you're having trouble grasping a concept, talk to Major K!. He'll guide you through the thinking. If you think you've got a hold on it, talk to Angelus. He'll challenge your thinking, give you the opportunity to clarify your position.

Second, and related to the latter - this class is not an easy A. At some point in this course you will find yourself challenged and confronted. For many of you, that will be today. If you walk out of this classroom before class is over, and without checking it with me, I may be understandably upset. However, I recognise that if you get angry or upset, you may need some time alone, or away from the group. To that end, I present to you the Emo Closet Time Out Room." She walks to the back of the classroom and opens the door to what previously was a supply cabinet. Inside is what looks very much like a white padded room. "This room is soundproofed. You can cry, scream and punch things all you want, and I will not penalise you for leaving the class or the discussion. Major K! or I will come to check on anyone who goes to the Emo Closet Time Out Room, in case you need help or support. Feel free to tell us to leave you alone.

Now, we've got our first debate to hear, a discussion topic to... um, discuss, and your first out of class assignment. Which you are going to kill, or at least seriously maim, me for giving you.

Comments

Discussion topic

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Today I want you to discuss ownership. What can you own? Can you own land? If so, how far down under the soil do you own? Can you own an item? A pet? Another person? Your own body? What, in this world, can you unequivocably call yours?

Re: Discussion topic

[kawalsky.livejournal.com]

Kawalsky practically bounded in to class early. He was psyched. He was pumped. He'd been jogging AND had been into the caffeine stash Jack had sent him.

"Hey Professor Maclay! Class. Ethics. Chaos. This is gonna be fun."

Re: Discussion topic

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"I hope so, Major K!" Whispering, she adds "and if they lynch me when I announce the assignment I'm counting on you to protect me."

Re: Discussion topic

[kawalsky.livejournal.com]

"You got it. I keep fit for this very reason, to protect professors from their lynch-mob students. It's what I *do*."

Re: Discussion topic

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Does not cling to you gratefully.

Re: Debate

[mparkerceo.livejournal.com]

Parker grimaces. "Legally, you could own all the way to the core o the earth-- but under different systems, those rights would disapppear if areas were left 'undeveloped' and thus meaningless." She pauses, thinking. "Technically, land ownership is an agreed-upon construct, when you think about it. A fiction agreed upon about where boundaries go. Does the land care? No. Do people who would rather they profit from it, instead of you? Yes. So, in a sense, you can 'own' it-- but only as far as a larger authority, say the government, can't take it away. That's eminent domain."

"Items-- same deal, to a lesser extent, except they're more mobile, and thus more easily co-opted."

She's still thinking about the pet or person angle, her face screwed up in concentration.

Re: OOC discussion

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

Angelus comes into the class in a timely fashion, but not so early that he's the only student in the room once he gets there.

He's dressed in a manner which isn't formal, but which is nicer than his usual class wardrobe even for a label queen like him.

Before taking a seat, he stops by Tara's desk. His attitude towards her is, no you're not hallucinating because of the early hour, deferential.

"Good morning," he deposits a mug in front of Tara. "Peppermint tea, with honey for my Lady."

Re: OOC discussion

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Thank you, Daddy," Tara replies sweetly. She takes a sip, and nods her approval.

Re: Discussion topic

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

"May I take my seat, my Lady?" Angelus asked.

Re: Discussion topic

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"At my feet, Daddy," Tara replies calmly.

Re: OOC discussion

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Re: OOC discussion

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

[ooc: S'okay. I'm nursing a baby migraine at the moment so we'll see how coherent I am come this evening. Might need to raincheck for the weekend]

Re: Discussion topic

[psycho-barbie.livejournal.com]

Callisto leans back and looks at nothing in particular as she answers.

"What I call my own? Myself. My body and my will are mine to command and no-one elses.

"Oh, and my sword."

Re: Discussion topic

[mparkerceo.livejournal.com]

"Someone could take your sword," Parker points out. "What makes it more yours than that of the person big enough to get it away from you?"

Re: Discussion topic

[psycho-barbie.livejournal.com]

"Because it's my sword, even if someone takes it, I'll still know the best forms to use it with, the way it balances, where the sweet spot is, the right grip."

Re: Discussion topic

[sensethevisions]

Phoebe is thoughtful for a long time as she starts to parse the question through her mind.

"What can I irrevocably call mine?

My body. No one can force me to do anything with my body that I do not allow or choose to do first. Actually, that statement's not true, as I have learned since coming here. Someone can take control of your body. They can make your body do things you hate or hurt those you love." Phoebe swallows and avoids looking at anyone.

"My soul. My soul belongs to me and whatever exists byond death that leads and guides us.

My mind. No one can force me to think in a manner that I do not wish to. I and I alone control my thoughts. They may take over my body but my thoughts and feelings are still my own.

None of these can ever be taken away from me save by death. Even then it would be impossible for someone to take my soul or my mind from me in that case.

I own my soul, but not my heart? It's no longer mine. Someone has been given that part of me to treasure."

Phoebe looks back down to the notes she's been taking.

Re: Discussion topic

[demonbelthazor]

Cole looked at Phoebe, somewhat awed by her last words. She'd said "I love you," to him, of course, but never in quite that way. Her heart was his. And he found himself wondering if he was truly worthy of it.

Re: Discussion topic

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Beka turned to Bel and whispered .

Re: Discussion topic

[demonbelthazor]

Belthazor pondered the question. In the Underworld, the Source owned everything. Period. You could be given something by his whims, but it could be taken just as easily. Demons often claimed space or titles or things or even each other. There was always the knowledge and fear, however, that what was claimed could also be lost.

"You can claim to own something," he said thoughtfully, "but someone stronger can always take it away. The only things you can truly call yours is what's been given to you that can't be taken away except by your own actions. Things like trust and respect and" -- he glanced at Phoebe -- "someone's heart."

Re: Discussion topic

[sensethevisions]

Phoebe looks up and turns to Cole. She smiles at him and then returns to the things she's writing down.

Re: Discussion topic

[http://users.livejournal.com/_gottahavefaith/]

"Hm." Faith thought for a while. "Well, sure, you can own land, but not like, to the center of the earth and junk. Just like, to the topish? I don't know anything about land stuff. But sure, you can own an item, and a pet. Not so much with the other people. And really, if we're getting into the whole 'things you own no matter what', then there's nothing. There's always someone more powerful who is going to be able to take everything from you."

"So you don't own anything."

Re: Discussion topic

[absolutesnark]

Piper ponders the question a bit before answering. "No one can own me or my body or my mind. It's possible, I suppose, for someone to make me do something against my will, but no one can make me choose to do anything willingly."

Re: Discussion topic

[sensethevisions]

Phoebe frowns. "Anyone ever tries to do that to you and they'll deal with one very pissed off little sister."

Re: Discussion topic

[bridge-carson.livejournal.com]

Like Parker said, ownership of land or objects is a legal contract... and what that legal contract covers all depends on what culture you're from. Some societies don't allow people individual belongings- everything is communal- and others have declared slavery legal.

But... whether you should own something just because you can is something else entirely.

Re: Discussion topic

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Beka nods to Tara, smiling. "Ownership is defined by law. I may own whatever the law says I may own.

Under the laws of this world, I may own land. That means I can do with that land what I choose. But if I fail to use the land and another uses it, and I do nothing to interrupt their use, in time, they will be given priority over me and come to own the land. Ownership of land requires use of it. There is a legal answer to how far down I own the land, but I don't know it.

I can own the things I purchase or steal, but if someone takes them from me, they belong to the taker. Unless I can challenge their claim with force or law.

I cannot own a pet. I can possess it. I can care for it. But that possession can be stopped by someone else. It can be stopped by the pet if the pet chooses to run away.

It is possible in some worlds," and here she grimaces, bites her lip, and struggles with composure before continuing, "to own a person. Ownership of a person can occur by contract or by indebtedness or force. I cannot own a person because I don't believe in owning free beings.

I do not own my body. It is me. It is not separate from who I am. Silly to speak of owning it. It is mine to do with as I please. Because I control it.

I call nothing mine. Except my friends and loves. They are mine because I protect them and care for them. But they are not owned or possessed. I call them mine because they matter to me. Nothing more. They choose whether to accept that label 'mine' or not."