Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #13, Apr 6]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"As you've certainly realized by now," Alex began, "I'm fond of raising issues in this class that seem straightforward at first, but become anything but once we explore. This week is no exception: we're going to talk about something well-intentioned in theory that has problematic implications. Our topic is Victims' Rights."

Conveniently, that was written on the board, and underlined.

"We've talked in the past about what rights the accused may have, in the hypothetical society we're discussing. The right to counsel, or the right to be charged in a timely manner, and so forth. Many victims of violent crimes feel slighted. The criminal gets all these rights, they'll say: where are their rights? As the victim, shouldn't they have larger roles in this piece?

"The Victims' Rights movements varies in its scope and its aims. On one end, you have people who wish to be fully informed about the process, consulted by the prosecution, and given the respect and dignity to which they are due. On the other, you have those who argue there should be three parties in the courtroom -- the defendant, the prosecution, and the victim, all with separate legal counsel arguing the relevant points. Some believe that the victim should be able to veto any sentence or plea agreement which he or she feels is insufficient, or to interfere with the timeline of the trial.

"As a prosecutor, I speak for the victims, but I also speak for justice. Justice isn't vengeance. Justice also isn't emotional, while many victims quite understandably are. A grieving father may push for capital punishment, in a case where the prosecution feels it isn't warranted. A battered wife may reconcile with her abusive spouse and ask the prosecution to drop the charges. As the victims, should their wishes be the ultimate say? What if the grieving father had asked us to chop up the defendant and boil him in hot oil?

"The rights of the accused protect an individual from the full weight of the government. A defendant's rights must never be compromised, or we risk tipping the scales of Blackstone's Formulation -- having ten innocent men imprisoned lest one guilty man goes free, and not the reverse. But clearly the victim has rights, and their voice should be heard and given full consideration by the court. So what are those rights, and how will they affect our hypothetical trial?"

Comments

Sign In - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Like you're totally going to sleep as soon as you finish posting some OCD.

... no reason.

Re: Sign In - JST13

[ihaveniceteeth.livejournal.com]

Gwen Cooper

During the Lecture - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Write notes. Pass notes. Draw little stick-figure courtroom dramas. "I object!"

Re: During the Lecture - JST13

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan had mixed feelings on this subject so she was curious to see what her classmates thought.

Re: During the Lecture - JST13

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck was drawing little stick-figures but they weren't part of a courtroom drama. Not yet, anyway. Chuck could easily send stick-figure Serena to jail and not feel like he was being OOC with the story.

Let's be honest, this whole drawing thing was mostly an excuse to keep his head down.

Re: During the Lecture - JST13

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt chewed on his pen thoughtfully as he took notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST13

[weetuskenraider]

Tahiri spent most of the lecture listening with a neutral but intent expression on her face, nodding along at certain points and taking notes on her datapad as needed.

When Alex got to the part about justice not being vengeance, though, a slightly darker look flickered through her eyes and she had to take a moment's effort to dispel it; anyone around who could sense these things might pick up a flash of guilt, mixed with a sudden but quickly dismissed impulse to argue the point.

Re: During the Lecture - JST13

[heromaniac]

Momoko understood the part about Justice not being vengeance. She had no problem understanding that. It was the addition of a third party, the victim, and their rights, to the crime that she was stuck on.

Well, that and what kind of dress she was going to buy for Prom.

Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

What rights should a victim have? Medical care? Financial compensation? If a victim feels the sentence is insufficient, should he or she have the right to veto a plea agreement? Or, conversely, to ask that the prosecution not try the case? Should a victim be allowed to object to a particular line of argument by the prosecution or defense? Should a victim have legal representation in court?

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"I don't think the victim should participate in the trial beyond their testimony," Joan said. "They are being represented by the prosecution, so it's not like they don't have any representation at all. But I do think the victims should be allowed to speak before the judge before sentencing if there is a conviction."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[bitten_notshy]

"I think a victim has the right to medical care, and they should have the right to sue for financial compensation in a civil court," Jack said. "But bringing them into the courtroom as parties with their own voice feels closer to vengeance than to justice for me. Most people find whatever happened to them worse than anything comparable that happened to anyone else -- I wouldn't expect victims to bring the perspective an attorney has."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"I, um... I don't know..." Kurt answered. "I mean, if the prosecution does a really bad job, or sweeps the crime under the rug, or the judge is biased, or something like that, the victim deserves a way to fix it? But... We've been talking all term about how hard it is to make sure justice is done. How is this not just going to mess that all up?"

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I don't thinking listening to their legal counsel on how to win the case is a good idea. They're not lawyers, and they're probably making emotional arguments that might or might not work on a jury. Testimony at sentencing is probably fair, though, since that's just in front of the judge." Dinah tilted her head. "I strongly believe in a victim's right to know the status of the defendant, though. Well in advance of if they're put on parole, or probation, or set free. They deserve to feel safe."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[glacial_queen]

"At some point, don't the victims have to step back anyway? You're not representing the victim, you're representing the people, right?" Karla asked, looking hesitant. "I mean, yes, the victim deserves justice and medical care, and, depending on what happened, maybe even financial compensation. But as awful as it is for the victim, the trial is about making sure the law of the land is upheld. So I don't think they should get the right to ask the prosecution not try the case, or veto, or object. Because, when you get down to it, they're the face of the people that the prosecution is trying to protect, but only that. If people lose sight of that, then the line between vengeance and justice is blurred."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[momslilassassin]

"I think they have the right to decide that the case not be tried," Ben offered quietly. "They might not feel particularly victimized."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[likethegun]

"I don't think medical care and financial compensation are unreasonable rights for a victim to have," Sam said. "I'm not sure if the victim should be able to veto a plea agreement though. I know sometimes pleas get guilty people off, and that isn't really fair, but they're usually part of a bigger picture, aren't they? I wouldn't expect a victim to be able to be objective about that sort of thing."

Re: Discussion - Victims' Rights - JST13

[heromaniac]

"I don't see why the victim has different rights than anyone else." Momoko shook her head. "And isn't a lot of that, like, rules, not rights? I mean, if a judge decides that the victim should have to approve an agreement, don't they have to let them?"

Discussion - What Measure a Victim - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

If a suspect has five (alleged) victims, must the five agree? Will a majority suffice? What if two object to the plea but the remaining three do not?

If a man is killed, who then serves as the voice of the victim? His next-of-kin?

If an abused wife shoots her husband, but not fatally, is he now the victim? Does he have the right to insist she have a more severe sentence, or to block her attempts at parole? To address the jury and speak of the impact of her crime?

Re: Discussion - What Measure a Victim - JST13

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"I'm pretty sure that last scenario falls under justifiable homicide," Joan remarked. "Even if he's not actively abusing her at the time she shoots him, she has reasonable fear for her life and well being."

Re: Discussion - What Measure a Victim - JST13

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

"What happens if one of the victims is unreasonable?" Kurt asked in response. "I mean, someone who wants payback isn't going to think rationally about what punishment the criminal deserves. Or whether there's enough proof to prove he did it. Or anything like that."

He sighed. "If an abused wife shoots her husband, he's the victim, ja. And shooting him wasn't right, and the wife should probably be punished. But not too badly, because SHE'S also the victim, and she was the victim first, and she was probably right to shoot him..." He frowned. "It's just all messy..."

Re: Discussion - What Measure a Victim - JST13

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I would think the next-of-kin could speak for the victim, to some extent," Dinah said. "Although if they hated the victim, I guess they wouldn't want to, and shouldn't have to. And no, I don't think agreement among the five victims is necessary, or even likely, in the first case. People are too different."

Speak to the TAs - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

If they are here. Alex is hoping they are, as she wants to talk to Karla. (No slight intended towards Kurt -- she's hoping he's there just to see his smiling face, bb.)

Re: Speak to the TAs - JST13

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt was there, although not smiling all that much. He had his fingers twined in his hair and looked kind of agonized by the topic of the day.

Talk to Alex - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

It's what she's here for. I'll even use her "I speak for the victims" icon.

(No, seriously, that's what she's saying in this particular clip.)

OOC - JST13

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Excuse the general loopiness -- it's crazy-late, but I had to throw class together because I intend to sleep like the dead and I was worried I wouldn't wake up in time to sit down and write something coherent.

Pings will be forthcoming on the other side of dreamland.