fandomhigh | Ethics [Thursday, October 8, 1st period]

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Ethics [Thursday, October 8, 1st period]

"I trust that all of you survived your weekend with your relatives mostly intact," Anakin said, sweeping into the room precisely on time. "Today we talk about something called the Golden Rule, a concept which unites many separate religions on this planet," he said, leaning against his desk and stared around the classroom. "It sounds altruistic: 'do unto others as you would have done unto you', but there's a couple of logical flaws in it. What if you don't mind getting poked in the stomach? Does it follow that you could wander around aimlessly poking people? What if you don't see what's wrong with stealing? Or killing? Or hating entire groups of people on principle? If the practical application is supposed to be you randomly help people because they could be good, wouldn't the opposite be that you could randomly harm people because they might be evil?"

He shrugged. "I suppose the Golden Rule could be broken down to 'be nice to people, and they'll be nice to you' but out here in the real world, we all know it doesn't exactly work like that, and the concept could also be reinterpreted as 'it doesn't bother me, so why does it bother you?' Is this a case of aiming for an ideal and hoping that it will cause a ripple effect of positive things, or something overly simplistic that taken to its logical extreme renders itself useless? Has seeing it on everything from coffee mugs to tea towels made the very idea of it trite, or does it still have a place in the mind of someone trying to lead an ethical life?"

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Logical flaws of the Golden Rule! Should you go around poking people in the stomach because you don't mind getting poked? Randomly hurt people just in case they're evil?

Bobby actually had to make the effort to make sure that there was no literal ice to accompany his tone when he replied. "There's always gonna be some assholes in the world who hate people for stupid reasons, reasons that maybe these people don't have control over. And they're the kind of people who'll go around saying 'oh, I'd never cross the line and do something against the law', well that's sure convenient when the law doesn't have anything in place to protect those others, isn't it?"

Anakin was a little surprised by the vehemence in Bobby's voice, but that didn't show on his face. "So they interpret the phrase to mean 'do unto other people like me what I want, but the rest don't count'?"

Anakin had a feeling that Bobby fell squarely into the persecuted minority.

He did, though he wore the fact that he didn't look like someone who'd have reason to ever experience persecution like protective armor of a sort.

"Exactly. And then, of course, sometimes the people who had all the bad crap piled on them are just gonna go 'hey, you treated me like crap, so obviously I can do the same to you'. Which the first group is just gonna take as proof that they were right all along, and it'll just... cycle."

"...It doesn't work," Hayley said. "People are still gonna be mean because it gets them money or happiness or something."

She was smiling happily when she said it.

Anakin tried not to be creeped out by the smile. "Are they the majority, though?" he asked.

"No," Hayley said. "But they're the last people you'd expect."

"What makes you think so?" Anakin replied.

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

onlysmokesnics.livejournal.com - 2009-10-08 20:57 (UTC) - Expand

"This is very similar to a saying we have in Kaeleer," Karla said, trying to keep the discussion away from potentially dangerous areas. "We teach it to children, especially right after the Birthright Ceremony, when they first have access to their Jewel strength. But it's a child's saying; a pretty sentiment that's over-simplified for a world-view that's very black and white. That worldview can't last very long. Things get messy and complicated. And the Golden Rule breaks down under the weight of that complication."

Anakin nodded, eyes shining with approval. "Give me an example of a complication."

"The first time you realize that just because you live this way, it doesn't mean that others do," Karla answered softly. "You can be as kind, unselfish, and polite as you like and that doesn't mean that you or people you care about won't become victims of other people's greed, malic, or ambition. And discovering that betrayal can come from anyone, not just people you think fit some kind of 'type.' Discovering that the Golden Rule doesn't offer actual protection means that you have to reevaluate what it means and how you're going to let it influence your actions. "

"The thought behind the rule is well meaning," Jonas started, thinking back to how harmonious and peaceful the Community was even while horrible things bubbled under the surface, "but people will misuse it or ignore it and dull the well meaning idea after awhile. It's inevitable. I believe it's a good rule to have but it's not one that should be followed precisely."

"Do you think there would be a way to rephrase it to make its meaning more clear?" Anakin asked.

"It is well-meaning, but too simple a sentiment," Raven said. "More of a guideline than an absolute rule."

"So do you think it's more applicable for children, then, who are just learning the ways of ethical behavior?" Anakin asked. "Are adults supposed to realize that the world is more complex?"

"That kinda assumes you treat all people the same or something," Katchoo spoke up, "and that's pretty stupid, innit? 's naive, at least. Especially if, say, you don't give a crap about ninety-seven percent of the world, like one percent, and hate the hell outta the other two."

Purely hypothetical, okay? Because the percentages were exaggerated.

Some.

Not a lot for Anakin, really. "So let's say that this is supposed to apply to the ninety-seven percent," Anakin replied, "as a guideline for societal behavior. You might not like them, or care about them, but you aren't going to punch people in the face as they stand in line, assuming they haven't looked at you strangely or cut you off or spoken too loudly on their cellular phone."

...Anakin might also have issues.

"Be a pretty boring society, then, if it was me," Katchoo allowed, leaning back in her chair. "People ignoring each other most of the time. Beats the hell outta trying to take advantage of each other, though."

That'd be the two percent, yes.

Anakin nodded. "Why do you think society isn't that boring? Is it the inherent stupidity of people, or something else?"

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

thismaskiwear.livejournal.com - 2009-10-08 17:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

sith_happened - 2009-10-08 20:36 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

thismaskiwear.livejournal.com - 2009-10-08 20:54 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

sith_happened - 2009-10-08 22:02 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Answer discussion question #1!

thismaskiwear.livejournal.com - 2009-10-08 22:15 (UTC) - Expand

"The term 'others' in the phrase itself is problematic. It creates a 'them' in contrast to a 'me.' If it was 'do unto all,' which is more inclusive, no one would follow it, since not everybody - or everything, for that matter - is equal, and never will be," Emma said darkly. "It's just a justification to be nice to your friends, and then slap down anyone who challenges you."

"Do you think the writer of this rule expected such a...realistic...interpretation like that?" Anakin replied.

"What they expected doesn't matter," Emma replied. "It is what it is, and pretty intent won't change it."

"I-I-I think anything can be taken to an extreme wh-where it just gets silly," Tara offered. "I, uh, don't have a problem with the basic idea of being good to people because you would like them to be good to you. I don't think the reverse -- b-being bad to people because you can justify it -- is okay."

Edited 2009-10-08 19:10 (UTC)

Anakin nodded. "Do you think everyone else will share your opinion?"

Tara moved her lips to one side, debating the question. "M-my mom always says that it'd be boring if everybody felt the same way all the time," she said. "I think I'm right? But I, uh. I don't think everyone will agree, no."

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