Ethics class, 8-10am Friday morning

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Tara leans against her desk, smiling as she watches the students come in. Some of the faces she recognises, and gives a nod. The room is filled with soft, comfortable chairs, which are positioned in a circle. Each chair has a wooden insert in one arm, to lean on while writing, and each wooden insert has a blank piece of paper on it.

When everyone has taken their seats, Tara begins.

"The first rule of ethics class is that you do not talk about things that happen inside of ethics class. The second rule of ethics class is that you do not talk about things that happen inside of ethics class. Allow me to clarify: you may discuss your revelations, challenge your friends and mock the teacher all you like. But if anything said inside this class is ever used against another member of it, it will mean instant detention. You will, however, have the opportunity to explain yourself before I drag you before Principal Connor. This class cannot function if people are afraid to speak."

She looks around the classroom, stopping briefly on each face. "This school is very unusual. Yes, obviously the squid is a bit odd, but what's more interesting to me is that there are individuals sitting in this room" she nods to Angelus, "who identify themselves as evil. That, ladies and gentlemen, is what the first section of the course will be discussing. Evil, good, and what makes the difference between the two. Your evil classmates have perspectives you need to think about and consider. Don't ignore them in a mistaken belief that they have no ethics."

"Each class runs for two hours. Ordinarily this will be broken up into two sections: discussion and debate - today, however, there will be two discussion sections instead. The majority of your assessment will come through your involvement in class discussions. Every student is expected to participate every week. If you are painfully shy, write your thoughts down and hand them in to me. If I don't know what you're thinking, you don't get credit for it. After this week a formal debate will be held once a week. For those of you unfamiliar with debating, this means two teams of three students taking opposing sides on an issue determined by me. You will each be expected to debate three times during the term, with a week's notice to prepare for each one. At the end of semester a practical exam will be held. This will assess not what you choose to do, but how accurately you have come to an understanding of your own ethical code. I expect you to be honest with yourselves.

Friday and Monday classes are identical. Please feel free to switch between them if you have commitments that interfere with your regular attendance."

"I will want two teacher's assistants for this course, whose function it is to prompt discussion and challenge your thinking. These students will be expected to attend both Monday and Friday classes. Today's discussion will serve as your audition. If you are interested, please say so on your paper, or see me after class."

She smiles. "Alright, enough from me. Here's your first challenge: I want you to identify something you have done in the course of your life that another person might consider to be evil. I want you to explain to me why you did it, and whether you would make the same choices again if placed into a similar situation. You do not have to share this with your fellow students. Throw ideas around, talk about what different people consider evil, but write your final answers down on your piece of paper."

(Second challenge will be posted in the comments below. Discussion will be closed Thursday next week, for those who need to slowplay.)

Comments

Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Tara clears her throat, waiting until she has everyone's attention.

"Mostly as I listen to people talking about killing, they're thinking of humans. I come from a place" she smiles at Buffy, "where there are vampires, demons, and other forces of darkness. A vampire does not have a soul, but as Angelus here proves, they are sentient, thinking creatures. For a vampire, killing a human is no more evil than a human killing a cow - it is their natural food source.

Can it be considered right to kill a vampire or a demon for what he or she was born?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"Actually, my answer stands for all sentient beings." He frowns. "Are zombies sentient? Because there's no way I'm going to feel bad about killing them."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"The qualifications for sentient life are intelligence, self-awareness, and the desire to continue existing. Did the zombies exhibit any or all of these? Did they fight for their lives? Did they attempt to communicate? Did they acknowledge changes to their own bodies, or profess desires?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[cameronmitchell.livejournal.com]

"Beside the whole existing thing and wanting to eat our brains, I don't think they were communicating or very self aware." Cameron shrugs. "I really didn't take the time to ask them for tea or anything, though."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_gottahavefaith/]

Faith shrugs. "I don't think most humans would feel bad about killing, say, a man-eating bear or something. No offence to Angelus over there, but if he was directly threatening me on someone I cared about, I might make with the staking. Nothing personal."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"If he was engaged in a threatening act, certainly. But what if you happened upon a vampire on the street. One that you had not come to know as a person. Would you kill him for being a vampire, or would you wait until he (or she) attacked someone?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_gottahavefaith/]

Faith shrugged again. "If I was bored? Sure, I'd kill them. Same goes for if they were annoying me. But if they were just sitting somewhere, having a drink or something? Probably not."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[notstakedyet.livejournal.com]

"No offense taken," Angelus said. "I've been just as cranky with Slayers in reverse. The pretty brunette that I'm looking at excepted, of course."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_gottahavefaith/]

"See, you're cool like that. We get along, but not with other similar people, but we don't have any of that annoying 'but it's wrong!' garbage."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[sensethevisions]

Phoebe shakes her head and her voice is thoughtful.

"No. It's not right to kill a vampire or a demon for what they were born as. It's not something they chose to be. It's who they are. You cannot kill any creature for what they were born as. That would be murder. A child born as a demon deserves the chance to see what path they would follow."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Even if that path involves actions others might consider as evil?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[wraithbaitjohn.livejournal.com]

I want to agree with you Phoebe... with qualification.

I'd kill anything that fit into the categories under which I said I would kill a human.

If I'm in direct danger, if someone I care about is in direct danger, I don't care what I'm aiming at, it's going down.

If it's categorically dangerous, but not immediately threatening, I would remain wary, but I wouldn't shoot on site. "It's what I do" isn't a defense. If that were the case then we should just send all the surfers off to be shark meat, because eating things (like surfers) is 'what they do'.

There can be exceptions to the 'dark and dangerous by default' groups and wouldn't it suck to be the one who got carried away with the killing just to find out that they may have fit into a 'consider me dangerous' category, but were actually on your side?

I actually met a little Wraith girl who served tea and cookies. She wasn't a threat to me... well, mostly... when that changed, my perspective changed, but that's a long story and not the point here.

Oh, here's an example... anyone ever watch "Forever Knight?" Nick was a 'good' vampire who helped his community. There's no reason to kill him, because he's no danger to me or mine. However, LaCroix... if he showed up hungry and made any kind of move for my neck... staking him. I don't care if it's 'what he does'.

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[demonbelthazor]

Belthazor shrugged. "With demons and vampires, it's usually kill or be killed. We're They're soulless creatures bent on destruction. Give 'em any chance and they'll kill you. Even if they claim to be working with you, turn your back and they'll stab it.

"Umm. Not all of them though."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"If this is their nature, can they be blamed for it? A scorpion will sting you, but it's not evil. It's just a scorpion. Does the fundamental acceptance of killing as ordinary social practice imply that they are evil?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[demonbelthazor]

Belthazor mulled over the question. "A scorpion doesn't sting for personal gain, unless it's food it needs to survive. It stings because it's scared or it is defending itself. Demons kill for personal gain and for fun. It's the intent."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[lisacuddy.livejournal.com]

Lisa opens her mouth, but words don't immediately form. She's obviously a bit disturbed.

"Uhhh... I guess it depends on what you believe... if they are a threat of harm or not. It strikes me as if they are both capable of being mass murderers, and victims of a holocaust at the same time. That's something I may not be prepared to understand at this juncture.

I believe in being as merciful as a situation allows, I guess."

She crossed her arms across her chest and looks down.

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

Tara's voice is gentle, but she presses Lisa just a little more. "Would you believe it's fair to say that until the threat turns into action they deserve to carry on unharmed?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[lisacuddy.livejournal.com]

Lisa's voice in uncharacteristically weak. "Yeah, I think so. I don't really feel... capable of making these type of decisions right now. Sorry."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[mparkerceo.livejournal.com]

"Can it be considered *right* to allow yourself to be eaten?" Parker snorts. "Isn't that suicide by predator? If both parties are sentient, then something *should* be able to be worked out. As I understand it, though, the beings your talking about do not allow for the basic rights of other sentients, by definition. I owuldn't say it's their fault they were created as eating machines. But as long as they're a threat that can not be contained by any measures short of death, I don't see the point in debating this. A person can or may be able to change. If, and again, this is depending on sources whose credibilty could be questioned, I say if, these beings *can not change*, then what the hell? It's the ame thing we do to human serial killers. No better. No worse."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"Thank you, Parker, that's well argued. Would you condemn them as a serial killer just because they were a vampire, or would you wait for them to take a life before branding them with the label?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[mparkerceo.livejournal.com]

Parker glares at Tara, then thinks about this, hard.

"Again, if... and this is with credible sources of information, much experience from those with contact with them, and an understanding of their biological needs; if there was no other way to modify their behavior, or keep them away from their prey, I'd say, kill them as they're generated. That which can't learn or change is doomed to a pointless existence anyway. We do the same thing with deadly viruses. They're non-sentient, but we don't know what they're thinking. We do it with fire-- which we still don't fully understand, but we sure as hell don't let it range uncontained. If it can be contained and restrained, do it. If not, a quick death. There are much worse fates."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[kawalsky.livejournal.com]

"Not for what he or she was born as, but for what they do. Same as humans. If they screw around with me or mine, they get it no matter what they are."

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[brambless.livejournal.com]

"A scorpion stings. It is its nature. Would you punish the scorpion for stinging you?"

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[valentine-tart.livejournal.com]

Beka looks to Bel and Angelus. "No," she says simply.

Re: Second Hour - additional question (extra credit)

[apocalypsesoon.livejournal.com]

"Tough call. They are, by normal accounts, evil and unredeemable. But I think that there are few intelligent sentient beings, and I differentiate between intelligent OR sentient beings, that are completely unredeemable. And our myths are full of the bad guy turning good at the last minute."

"The sum of their deeds serves as record."