fandomhigh | Ethics [Thursday, September 20]

Current Mood: thoughtful

Entry tags:

ethics

Ethics [Thursday, September 20]

"Today we talk about something called the Golden Rule, a concept which unites many separate religions on this planet," Anakin began as he leaned against his desk and stared around the classroom. "It sounds altruistic: 'do unto others as you would have done unto you', but there's a couple of logical flaws in it. What if you don't mind getting poked in the stomach? Does it follow that you could wander around aimlessly poking people? What if you don't see what's wrong with stealing? Or killing? Or hating entire groups of people on principle? If the practical application is supposed to be you randomly help people because they could be good, wouldn't the opposite be that you could randomly harm people because they might be evil?"

He shrugged. "I suppose the Golden Rule could be broken down to 'be nice to people, and they'll be nice to you' but out here in the real world, we all know it doesn't exactly work like that, and the concept could also be reinterpreted as 'it doesn't bother me, so why does it bother you?' Is this a case of aiming for an ideal and hoping that it will cause a ripple effect of positive things, or something overly simplistic that taken to its logical extreme renders itself useless? Has seeing it on everything from coffee mugs to tea towels made the very idea of it trite, or does it still have a place in the mind of someone trying to lead an ethical life?"

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

So...Golden Rule: good idea or useless tripe? Pair up with another student and talk about it.

Or talk about no-fun glass-half-empty guy at the front of the classroom.

"The concept makes sense, but it's ultimately worthless," Kabuto said, not looking up from his notebook. "You can go around being nice to everyone and believing they'll do the same in return, but not everyone is a naïve fool. Sooner or later, someone is going to burst your happy little bubble."

"Well, it's a good idea. There's nothing wrong with a good idea... right?" He still seemed to be thinking it over. What was it about this class that made him question everything?

"It's a good concept in theory, but it doesn't happen a lot in real life," Jaina said. "Still doesn't mean you shouldn't try to live by it, though."

"Useless. It's emotional bribery at best, guilt-based extortion at worst. If you want to manipulate someone's feelings to get what you want from them, there are better ways of doing it," Victor said.

It's not that he missed the point. He just felt that the point was trite and better analyzed from this perspective.

"Oh, YOU'RE fun," Sokka spat. "The point's really more that everyone should be nice to everyone else. The bribery is just there because most of the time they're NOT."

"Excuse me if I barter 'fun' for 'efficiency,'" Victor said. "If the point is that everyone should be kind to one another because it would be 'nice', why not just substitute 'have a pony' for 'be nice'? Surely people would be happier if they all had ponies, wouldn't they?"

"No, this is all an insipid fantasy that only serves a purpose when someone is willing to use it to gain what they deserve."

And now Sokka was glaring at him. "Deserve, huh? Yeah, sounds to me like you don't DESERVE much of anything, except a punch in the teeth. You're not much of a 'people person', are you?"

"What people think of me is completely irrelevant," Victor scoffed. "And don't think yourself knowledgeable enough to state what I deserve. I deserve everything that I have worked for in life."

"Uhhhhhh... no. No, I can definitely say that anyone with an attitude like yours doesn't deserve anything." Sokka shrugged. "Could be worse, though. At least you don't think you deserve it because of who your father is."

"Bah," Victor said. Yes, he actually said 'bah.' "My father was a great man. I earn my way in part to honor him. But anyone who willfully chooses to allow their destiny to be shaped by another like that - demanding respect because of their lineage and not because they've fought for it themselves - fully deserves whatever fate is handed to them, especially by people like me."

Victor could have written self-help books if he had put his mind to it.

"Pffft."

Sokka could be dismissive, too.

"You don't fight for respect, you earn it. By being honorable. That's why it's called 'honor'."

"You earn respect by fighting for it," Victor said. "The two are not mutually exclusive. And honor can be earned in more ways than you seem to be aware. In a war you can gain honor by killing your enemy or by sparing his life. Two opposites yield the same result. You need to stop thinking so simply."

"... Okay, yeah, but those aren't the SAME honor. And you can also LOSE honor by killing your enemy or sparing his life. Which one you should do depends on the situation! I'm not the one thinking simply!"

"And yet you suggested that there was only one way to gain respect. 'By being honorable' while ignoring that there was more than one way to earn respect," Victor stated. "Respect can be gained... earned... fought for, all for any number of reasons in any number of ways. Do not presume to judge my ways based solely on the fact that I'm acutely aware of myself and how to improve myself."

Victor enjoyed taking short dramatic pauses so long as they were short enough to allow him to continue talking without interruption.

"Hey, I know what I said," Sokka countered, "and it wasn't that. Besides, I'm not judging you because of how you're improving yourself, I'm judging you because you're a JERK. And let me tell you right now, NOBODY respects jerks." Sokka grimaced.

Victor smiled a condescending little smile and said, "Believe your lies that men who forego niceties in favor of success aren't respected. If you believe hard enough, perhaps you'll be handed that pony and all will be right in your world."

Sokka blinked. "Yeeeeeah. Okay, now you're confusing 'respect' and 'fear'. Don't feel bad; I know all kinds of evil overlords who make that same mistake."

"Again, fear and respect are not mutually exclusive. You can fear a person but respect their power. You can respect a person but fear their power. You think too much in black and white. There is no black and white, only shades of grey."

In Victor's case, those shades were all pretty near black, of course.

"The assumption is that all people have the same wants and needs. True to some extent, but does not take differences into account." She couldn't help thinking about conversations with Adah, where the subject of help was always dangerous ground, even when expressed in terms of the lack of need for it.

"Is this like in sports, how you shake your oppenent's hand before a game?" John asked, trying to start a discussion with anyone.

Not that most people in Fandom knew Earth sports or customs, but John always forgot that part.

"You mean make it a fair start and then go from there?" Ed asked thoughtfully.

"Yeah, 'cause if you start out acting like an ass why would anyone be anything but an ass back at you?" John said.

"Yeah, guess that works," he agreed. "Then if they're an ass, you have perfect opportunity to do the same."

John nodded. "Or you can go with my preferred method and be sarcastic and see if they notice."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ethics [Thursday, September 20]

Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]

Re: Discussion question [9/20]