Steve Rogers (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
heroic_jawline) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomhigh2018-01-26 11:58 am
heroic_jawline) wrote in fandomhigh2018-01-26 11:58 am
Entry tags:
Lies Your Other History Teachers Told You, Friday, January 26, 2018
"War is, generally speaking, full of scoundrels and other terrible people," Steve said, "and the Civil War was no exception."
"For some background on this, there wasn't a standing army for the US as there is today. Soldiers existed, yes. But they were stationed on the borders out west and there were not very many of them. Most military force, should there be need of it, came from militias drummed up by each state," Tony said. "So the officers were generally people who had connections or money to be able to afford to attend military schools. This will come into play here."
Steve nodded. "Making the US military a large, professional career for millions didn't happen until after World War II. In the Civil War, militias were organized by town, sent into battle by states, and were generally led by the mayor's kid or the newspaper editor."
"Someone who had someone's ear who wanted to further their political career or gain glory in war," Tony said dryly. "Which I'm sure you can all guess how well this worked for both the Union and the Confederacy. Because trust us, it was on both sides. The Confederacy got lucky early on to have Lee in charge of their forces in Virginia. Lee had actual battle experience from his time in The Mexican-American War and was not entirely a political appointment."
"The Union side--the one fighting to keep the nation together--had bigger problems. Their initial head general was Winfield Scott, who at the time was slightly older than dirt. He'd also served in the Mexican-American War, but unlike Lee was not a young officer then. He was an old officer then. He was a young officer in the war of 1812, fifty years prior to the Civil War."
"Adding to all of this, West Point, where the majority of the actual officers received their training, was still teaching Napoleonic warfare. Where you marched your armies onto a field and duked it out. That... was not a smart idea as the technology of weapons were rapidly evolving," Trust Tony on that one, kids. "On top of that, the battlefields were in the forests and farmlands of the boarder states where an open field that could hold their forces simply did not exist."
"The death tolls were high and that was before you started adding in the terrible disease and horrifying health care that they had access to at the time," Steve said. "But it absolutely didn't help that the generals were equally concerned about their political standing and trying to win a battle. You can't serve both duty and ambition."
"Let's start with the gentleman who replaced Scott!" Tony said brightly. "George McClellan was the commander of the Army of the Potomac, the forces closest to the Union capitol. He was a rising star after he managed to organize his unruly band into something that made sense for classic military order. Once Scott was found to be too old and too cautious in his pursuit of rebel forces, the younger and much more popular McClellan was given his job as the General-in-Chief of all Union forces."
"Two problems with McClellan," Steve said a little dryly. "He vastly preferred training and supplying his troops to actually deploying them, and he thought he was much, much smarter than he actually was. He planned to run against Lincoln for President in the next election, so you can guess how taking orders would...chafe."
"Power corrupts they say," Tony added. "And popularity can go to a person's head. He even went so far as to consider taking the office of the presidency by force, using his popularity with his troops to do so. His tenure as General-in-Chief didn't even last a year before he was shuffled back to commanding the Army of the Potomac for a little while longer. His replacement was also no stranger to using politics to further his career, Henry Halleck--I'll forgive you for not knowing the name, he was barely of note in his leadership beyond perfecting supply lines to Union troops and his rivalry with his former subordinate and soon to be replacement, Ulysses S. Grant."
"We'll get more into General Grant in a different class," Steve said with a smile. "For now, imagine one side with generals fighting each other and the president while the other is united under a general who...isn't. The Union had vastly more people and munitions and still got its butt kicked all over Virginia for way longer than should've happened."
"How would you have handled the situation were you the president?" Tony asked. "Advisers telling you one thing and then another with no level on consensus as everyone jockies for position in the middle of a war."
"For some background on this, there wasn't a standing army for the US as there is today. Soldiers existed, yes. But they were stationed on the borders out west and there were not very many of them. Most military force, should there be need of it, came from militias drummed up by each state," Tony said. "So the officers were generally people who had connections or money to be able to afford to attend military schools. This will come into play here."
Steve nodded. "Making the US military a large, professional career for millions didn't happen until after World War II. In the Civil War, militias were organized by town, sent into battle by states, and were generally led by the mayor's kid or the newspaper editor."
"Someone who had someone's ear who wanted to further their political career or gain glory in war," Tony said dryly. "Which I'm sure you can all guess how well this worked for both the Union and the Confederacy. Because trust us, it was on both sides. The Confederacy got lucky early on to have Lee in charge of their forces in Virginia. Lee had actual battle experience from his time in The Mexican-American War and was not entirely a political appointment."
"The Union side--the one fighting to keep the nation together--had bigger problems. Their initial head general was Winfield Scott, who at the time was slightly older than dirt. He'd also served in the Mexican-American War, but unlike Lee was not a young officer then. He was an old officer then. He was a young officer in the war of 1812, fifty years prior to the Civil War."
"Adding to all of this, West Point, where the majority of the actual officers received their training, was still teaching Napoleonic warfare. Where you marched your armies onto a field and duked it out. That... was not a smart idea as the technology of weapons were rapidly evolving," Trust Tony on that one, kids. "On top of that, the battlefields were in the forests and farmlands of the boarder states where an open field that could hold their forces simply did not exist."
"The death tolls were high and that was before you started adding in the terrible disease and horrifying health care that they had access to at the time," Steve said. "But it absolutely didn't help that the generals were equally concerned about their political standing and trying to win a battle. You can't serve both duty and ambition."
"Let's start with the gentleman who replaced Scott!" Tony said brightly. "George McClellan was the commander of the Army of the Potomac, the forces closest to the Union capitol. He was a rising star after he managed to organize his unruly band into something that made sense for classic military order. Once Scott was found to be too old and too cautious in his pursuit of rebel forces, the younger and much more popular McClellan was given his job as the General-in-Chief of all Union forces."
"Two problems with McClellan," Steve said a little dryly. "He vastly preferred training and supplying his troops to actually deploying them, and he thought he was much, much smarter than he actually was. He planned to run against Lincoln for President in the next election, so you can guess how taking orders would...chafe."
"Power corrupts they say," Tony added. "And popularity can go to a person's head. He even went so far as to consider taking the office of the presidency by force, using his popularity with his troops to do so. His tenure as General-in-Chief didn't even last a year before he was shuffled back to commanding the Army of the Potomac for a little while longer. His replacement was also no stranger to using politics to further his career, Henry Halleck--I'll forgive you for not knowing the name, he was barely of note in his leadership beyond perfecting supply lines to Union troops and his rivalry with his former subordinate and soon to be replacement, Ulysses S. Grant."
"We'll get more into General Grant in a different class," Steve said with a smile. "For now, imagine one side with generals fighting each other and the president while the other is united under a general who...isn't. The Union had vastly more people and munitions and still got its butt kicked all over Virginia for way longer than should've happened."
"How would you have handled the situation were you the president?" Tony asked. "Advisers telling you one thing and then another with no level on consensus as everyone jockies for position in the middle of a war."
Re: Answer the discussion question!
He fidgeted a little, because he still wasn't quite ready to explain that he'd speak to the ghosts of the people that had served under those men. At least not in class.
"The people serving under those men might have only joined for glory, or maybe they signed up because they truly believed in their cause, but they're at least more likely to be honest about the situation their generals have put them in. I'd have to still talk to the generals, of course, if only because people like that have egos that need stroking, but nobody knew the war like the people who had their lives on the line trying to win it."
Re: Answer the discussion question!
Re: Answer the discussion question!
There were probably gentler ways of putting that one. Norman was a little desensitized for some reason.
"But... yeah. In small doses. At least enough to form a better idea of what's actually going on."
Re: Answer the discussion question!
Re: Answer the discussion question!
There was a long pause, and then Norman kind of hedged, "Maybe. But it's probably hard to win a war without food and shoes, too."
He was mostly just guessing, here. But it seemed that way to him.
Re: Answer the discussion question!
Re: Answer the discussion question!
"I guess it wouldn't be," Norman allowed. "So... maybe just check in with different captains until you find one you know can reliably relay the situation beyond just the supply situation?"
See, ghosts didn't generally care much about eating or having functional footwear. They were so much less complicated, if you could find one who wasn't fixated on a final task or something.