endsthegame: (Default)
endsthegame ([personal profile] endsthegame) wrote in [community profile] fandomhigh2014-06-09 03:55 pm

Practical Philosophy, Monday

"Judgments," Ender said. "We all make them."

He gave everyone a faint smile. "About actions, and about people. It's this process that drove the philosophers of old into endless debates on the nature of morality, on when it was okay to judge something unfit, terrible, evil. They developed extensive theories on ethics and morality. Take the old Greek philosophers such as Socrates and Aristotle, who believed in virtue ethics - the idea that the character of the person defines the morality of his actions. Socrates argued, for instance, that if a person knew what was right, then he would do right. It was only ignorance that caused evil."

"Then there were the stoics, who believed virtue laid in contentment, in being happy with the lot you were given, whatever it was. Opposite them, the hedonists, who believed 'good' was anything that maximized pleasure. Later philosophers came up with the theory of consequentialism, the idea that one's morality was determined by the consequences of one's actions. Some philosophers felt that good deeds were only good if they worked to better the state, for instance. On the other hand, deontologists such as Kant believed that goodness stemmed from the act itself, and the reasons that drove you to act - acts made out of duty were considered intrinsically good, for instance."

He sat back.

"But how does that translate to us practically?" Ender said. "Well, as I said, we all make our judgments. Of ourselves, of the people around us, of their pasts - especially around here. On what do you base your judgments? I think most of us realize that there is no such thing as pure black and white - pure good and evil - but the sliding scale of our moral judgment of others does tend to work from a particular frame of reference."

Another faint smile.

"I personally believe that character is important," he said. "Once you try to understand what moves people to do what they do, it becomes that much harder to consider them evil, irredeemable. After all, most of us do what we think is right, even if our ideas of what right is fluctuate wildly. And in doing these things, we inspire other people to act in their own way."

Re: Sign In!

[identity profile] notaweenie.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 02:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Barry Ween

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] notaweenie.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 02:06 pm (UTC)(link)
"I generally judge something by how much it pisses me off," Barry admitted. "But that's my own fucking frame of reference. Your own mileage may vary."

Re: Sign In!

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 03:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Celia Bowen

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 03:09 pm (UTC)(link)
"I judge people by how they treat their inferiors," Celia said quietly. "People in service to them, people who work below them, children -- you can tell infinite amounts about a person by how they treat those who are weaker or less fortunate than they are."

And she was just going to stay quiet, having said that. She didn't know if it was the right scale to use, but she had yet to regret using that particular litmus test.

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 03:27 pm (UTC)(link)
"It's a good starting point," Celia noted, shrugging slightly.

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 03:42 pm (UTC)(link)
"I'm more willing to look to their character, then, as you mentioned," Celia said, nodding. "There's something else there. But I've never met a person who treated children or animals or servants poorly who then turned around and was decent in spite of it. It might work the opposite way, though, as you're saying."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] notaweenie.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 05:27 pm (UTC)(link)
"Pretty much fucking everything," Barry half-joked. "The government. Education standards. Misogyny. The military. People who can't see the big picture. People who don't listen when you say 'Don't fucking touch that!' Giant sentient apes with telepathy. I can continue but the list is pretty fucking long."

Re: Sign In!

[identity profile] bjornstjarna.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 06:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Soren Bearstar

Re: Talk to the TA

[identity profile] makemyownway.livejournal.com 2014-06-09 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Cade was there, judging all of you.

But that wasn't new, even if he hardly had a leg to stand on.

Re: Sign In!

[identity profile] fly-so-serious.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:31 am (UTC)(link)
Joker Moreau

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] fly-so-serious.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:38 am (UTC)(link)
"Character is important, but so are actions," Joker answered. "A good person can still do horrible things if they feel like they have to -- or even by accident. Conversely, a person can do good things all day long because it makes them feel good about themselves and still be a mean spiteful person underneath."

Re: Sign In!

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:40 am (UTC)(link)
Eleanor Lamb

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:42 am (UTC)(link)
"I don't know that 'evil' and 'irredeemable' are the same thing," Eleanor said. "I don't think my mother is irredeemable, but I do think she's evil. I say that even though I understand her motivations, knowing that she believes she is working for the greater good."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:43 am (UTC)(link)
"Are there degrees?" Eleanor asked. "Does misogyny anger you more than the military, and where do sentient telepathic apes rank?"

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
"It's a useful measure," Eleanor said softly. "The way one treats inferiors indicates how one wields power against those who have less."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:51 am (UTC)(link)
"What if someone does horrible things believing them to be necessary?" Eleanor asked, not glancing up. "Believing one is righteous doesn't make one righteous. The ends don't justify the means."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] fly-so-serious.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:57 am (UTC)(link)
"Yeah, no, you're right about that," Joker agreed. "Your mom's a bitch. And the ends almost never justify the means."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
"Or what depths they might stoop to in order to keep that power," Celia agreed quietly. "A person who hurts someone smaller or weaker than them clearly isn't concerned with their pride."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] nobloodymessiah.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
"It's a good indicator of cruelty," Eleanor said. "Someone beneath you has limited options, to resist. They'll roll over and take it, most likely."

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] pasunereveuse.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
"They might not have any options," Celia agreed, quietly, looking down as she did. "I mean, animals wouldn't. A child wouldn't."

She knew Eleanor would know exactly what she meant.
justwantedfriends: (Default)

Re: Sign In!

[personal profile] justwantedfriends 2014-06-10 03:10 am (UTC)(link)
Kira Yukimura
bearmaidenfair: (side eye)

Re: Sign In!

[personal profile] bearmaidenfair 2014-06-10 03:18 am (UTC)(link)
Vider Bearskin

Re: Talk.

[identity profile] notaweenie.livejournal.com 2014-06-10 01:03 pm (UTC)(link)
"Giant sentient apes rank first. For personal reasons," Barry said with a dark look passing over his face. "The military pisses me off more than misogyny when they're endangering the fucking planet or my friends. Acts of misogyny pisses me off more usually."