fandomhigh | History of Medieval England - Thursday 6th Period:Discussion 5: Royal Infighting in the 12th Century

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Laan signs in. She carefully doesn't look at Professor Methos.

Cordy signs in.

Elizabeth signs in.

Vala signs in.

Parker signs in.

Zero signs in ~~very very late because the mun's all-nighter caught up to her.~~

The civil war between Stephan and Matilda over the English throne was mostly a game of the nobility selling their support for one side or the other, and switching when necessary. Despite the success of William the Conqueror in importing a stronger form of feudalism, the nobility was still able to manipulate the power structure if the king in charge was not particualrly astute. Do you think there is any way to structure a feudal government where it doesn't matter how capable the leader is?

"I can't see how. I'd think you'd just have to work at making sure the most capable person was put in charge. Maybe by giving up on the straight bloodline sucession and having each ruler pick a protege while still alive to suceed them when they died ~~like seemed to work really well for the Romans in next week's Western Civ lecture, which I actually learned a lot in writing up~~.

"You know, pick your brightest young person, teach them the job, and then adopt them or at leat make it clear to everyone that they were next in line. Because just betting that your oldest son will be the best choice is ~~is no basis for a system of government!~~ pretty much a gamble, right? Not to mention if they end up fighting a stupid civil war just because there was no handy son around."

Methos grinned wryly at her. "A lot of people at the time quite agreed with you. The irony was there was a blood heir who was extremely capable. Henry I's bastard son Robert of Gloucester was a well-respected man at court and in the country. Considering that Henry I's own father was illegitimate, it makes very little sense to historians why Henry did not simply name Robert his heir when Henry's legitimate son died.

"To give Robert credit, he fought tirelessly on behalf of his half-sister Matilda, and was one of the few that never switched sides."

"Well then that's just stupid on henry's part. I suppose you have to have someone bright on the throne in the first place to kick things off, huh?"

"Possibly. If you've got a strong and armed priesthood, they might be able to provide a backbone to take the place of a competent king?" Parker's not entirely sure about this, but it seems like it should work. "But that might change into a theocracy, if you're not careful."

The 12th century in Europe was a time of Renaissance, as improving food stores allowed more people to develop art, literature and science rather than devoting all their energies to sustainance. The development of the Gothic style of architecture heralded in unprecidented building programs in Europe.

In intellectual pursuits, many classical world texts were recovered (mostly because they had been translated into Arabic and preserved by the Islamic world) and the law codes of ancient Rome became very sexy, for want of a better word, in Europe. England had a long tradition of laws under the Anglo-Saxons, and the combination of intellectuals from the Continent bringing Roman law and Henry I and Henry II of England encouraging the development of a standardized law code was that suddenly, everyone was in court, suing their neighbors and testifying for the prosecution.

This explosion of law affected the average Englishman or woman far more than any battles fought over the throne.

Please see your homework assignment for more information.

Discuss.

Vala couldn't help but be intertested in the topic. "So how did it work in practice with all of these changing laws? I mean, I'd think there would be issures with 'grandfathering' and loopholes and such until things were finally settled.

So did people get away with more, or did they suddenly get hit with being tried under new laws or systems they hadn't had before?"

"It was more a case that people were being held accountable for things they had gotten away with before. If they might suffer judgement for something that they had been able to get away with before, it was balanced by the people who were receiving justice for a crime they had had no redress against.

"Generally, what the king said went. So if he said that, for instance, wearing blue fabric unless you were of a specific social class was illegal, you weren't allowed to wear blue fabric, even if you'd been doing it for years. ~~Even if you were the Tick~~. But flexibility was inherent in the system in that the people enforcing the laws were locals who knew the people involved. If they knew that Crazy Joe was colourblind and thus could not tell between blue and red, they wouldn't prosecute him for wearing blue. For example."

"Hmmmm...," she nods. "O.k., so ~~working the~~ local loopholes and discretion would ~~be the way to go~~ keep it from being too harsh on people."

I did not get a chance to cover this in the lecture, but the friendship and eventual rivalry between Henry II and Thomas a Becket is legendary. It is also an excellent example of changing attidudes towards education and status in the 12th century.

What the feud came down to, in the end, was Henry II expecting Thomas a Becket to do as he was told. Henry had taken a well-educated butcher's son (who, almost by definition, was a cleric -- which is to say someone who has affiliation with the Church but has not taken Holy Orders to become a priest) and made Thomas Henry's Chancellor, one of the most powerful men in the secular government. He then wanted Thomas to become the Archbishop of Canterbury, and be the most powerful and influential man in the English Church. Thomas said he could do one or the other, not both.

Henry insisted, Thomas took Holy Orders, and then (against Henry's will) resigned the Chancellorship. Henry thought he was putting someone in charge of the Church infrastructure in England, and instead Thomas became the champion of the Pope's policies in England. The sticking point was over the zealously-protected right for clerics (which pretty much meant 'educated male') to be tried in Church courts for any crime. Henry wanted to try criminal cases in a secular court, regardless of the status of the defendant.

While this story ends in lurid murder and public humiliation, what interests us is the strata of society that are represented. A member of the lower classes is, through education, raised to secular power in a country, and then raised to control of the clergy of that country. Education made this possible. The widespread codification of law made this possible.

"How available *was* education? Did you need a sponsor, if you a butcher's son, or just enough money to pay for the tutors? And why did they want to be tried in the Church courts? Did they always get off easier, or was it just the cachet, of a private trial?" Parker's just full of questions today.

"To answer your second question first, church trials were invariably kinder than secular courts. Among other things the Church could not execute anyone; they could only hand people over to the secular authorities with a recommendation of execution -- which they were loathe to do with clerics.

"As for the availability of education... it was there, but expensive in terms of labor. A wealthy butcher who could spare both the money to pay for his son's education and his son's labor in the family business could send him to be educated."

Careful, or talkiinhg in class will become talking to the class.

Vala sat in the back, to one side, making it as easy as possible for her and Cam to avoid each other.

Instead of the usual short essay, I'd like to have a full scale English trial two weeks from now in class. In loose terms, a medieval trial consisted of a plaintive, a defendant, a jury whose function was more like a judge in our modern court system, a judge whose function was more like a jury, and witnesses.

I will function the judge. Please by Tuesday sign up to be one of these functions:

Jury (3 members)
Plaintiff
Defendent
Witnesses (2 or 3, depending on how many people are in attendance)

Next week we'll discuss the case specifics of the case.

Lana signs up to be on the jury.

Cordelia signs up to be a witness.

Elizabeth signs up for the jury.

Vala is feeling really... weird ~~and possibly a bit guilty~~. She signs up to be the defendant.

Completely arbitrarily, Methos assigns Cameron Mitchell as the plaintiff.

*Vala scowls. She wasn't feeling that masochistic, dammit...!*

Parker signs up to be a witness.

Zero looks very uncomfortable. "This, er. This isn't a witch trial, is it?"

Methos grinned at her. "I haven't decided yet. But witch trials were very rare in the Middle Ages. Most of the dramatic and violent ones took place in the early modern era. I grant you, only a historian knows or cares about the distinction."

"Oh. I guess I was one o' the lucky ones, then. Um." Zero mentally counts. "There's still a space left on the jury, yeah?"

"Yes. You, Lana and Elizabeth will be the jury."

Lee signs up to be a witness.

He's here, any questions?

What animal would John Crichton have been turned into in this time period? Discuss...

A sheep.

And ack! I have utterly no brain. I tried to respond to the discussion questions, but after attempting to read them and realizing I'm doing the reading the same line over and over again mindlessly thing I figure it's no use.

My brain has officially flatlined. Or is too bloody full of my lines from "Lanterns on Lamar" to manage anything else. ;)

A donkey. *sings Beast of Burden*

A cow.

History of Medieval England - Thursday 6th Period:Discussion 5: Royal Infighting in the 12th Century

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QUESTION 1: Stephan and Matilda

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QUESTION 2: Henry I and the growth of English Common Law

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QUESTION 3: Henry II and Thomas a Becket

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