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a tale of two lions

A Tale of Two Lions, Monday, 9/3

"Hello," Tyrion said, as he walked quickly into class just as the bell rang. "Lady Ghanima has been delayed, so I'll start class on my own this week."

"The first type of power we're looking at is hereditary power -- specifically, the hereditary monarchy. In an hereditary monarchy, the crown goes from one member of a family to the next. Generally the transmission runs father to eldest child to that child's eldest son, but with caveats. For example, women are skipped over in most systems of this sort unless there are no sons in their generation. A younger brother may inherit if the elder one is removed -- for example, if he dies young or joins a religious order. And if a whole generation dies without issue, the crown may go to whatever cousin shouts the loudest."

"There are good things about this system," he added. "It tends to be stable. It allows families to become expert at governing, just as another family may be expert at making shoes or running taverns. It rewards people for historic strength. And it's common in almost all cultures, so clearly it's something humans are drawn toward."

"But there are also problems, of course. The family in charge may get to the point where they're so removed from the small folk they rule poorly. Traits like cruelty or feebleness of mind or body may come to dominate a family, such that their hold on the throne is weak and their rule poor. And if a child inherits the throne before he is fully adult, the country may suffer under his whims."

"Your assignment today," he finished, "is to discuss the concept and decide whether you favor or oppose the idea as a whole. If you oppose it, what would you suggest in its place?"

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Like you just can't wait to be king.

Edited 2012-09-03 14:08 (UTC)

Marasiah Fel

Peter Wiggin

Lex Luthor

Evan Sabahnur

Jace Wayland

Natalie Adams

Karla

Paddra Nsu-Yeul

Daenerys Targaryen

Kenzi

Ulrik of Denmark

Bucky Katt

Chaz Villette

Listen, take notes, fret that you were not born heir to anything ... or that you were.

Edited 2012-09-03 14:08 (UTC)

Yes, this was something Sia definitely knew about. And trying to keep who she was quiet meant that the entire class would be saved some minor bitching about the Moffs bitching that they'd be ruled by a woman someday. You're welcome, entire class.

Yeul listened carefully, looking thoughtful. It did not sound like a system that had ever been used on Pulse or Cocoon, which meant she lacked the experience that others in her class surely had.

Was the way the fal'Cie had ruled uncontested, even in the guise of humans, for so long, vaguely similar? She wasn't sure.

Do you favor or oppose the hereditary monarchy? Why or why not? If not, what would you suggest instead?

Messy pinging encouraged.

Edited 2012-09-03 14:08 (UTC)

"I approve of this system," Sia said. "Before my time, my galaxy had to deal with people usurping power from the rightful rulers-" Jacen. "-every few years, it seems. There weren't always set elections, and people would be placed in the position who might seem like they were fit to lead until they had the opportunity to do so and then you realized how unfit they were. It was chaos. With hereditary monarchy the chaos is removed and the people know more or less what they're getting from the start."

"Yes," Dany said, actually pointing at the other girl and nodding. "With a usurper, how can you be certain that they're a viable replacement and not just some greedy upstart? Monarchies exist for a reason. And yes, perhaps there might be an unfit ruler amongst a certain family, but their children will be visible to the public eye, and the country as a whole will know what sort of government they might anticipate."

"In my experience, most usurpers are greedy upstarts," Sia added. "There are times that someone is deposed because it's the genuinely right thing to do, but most of the thing it's just someone new wanting to have the power."

Or maybe her galaxy just had a big problem with Sith.

Dany sort of thought it was right to remove her father from the throne, yes, but then Rhaegar should have had it. Or she should, now. "The man who took our throne from my father drove our country into financial ruin," she told Sia. "And now his son is beheading noblemen for fun. So...greedy upstart meets cruel, in my case."

"On the other hand," Karla said, her mouth drawn in a hard line, "that doesn't exactly prevent the throne from being usurped. It just means that the ones doing it are the ones you don't expect because they're family."

"I think there's a time and a place for hereditary monarchy," Peter said smoothly. "When there's a larger threat from without, or circumstances are volatile and dangerous to say the least on the most basic level - something that was especially the case in our medieval times - a country can benefit from having a stable leadership that isn't constantly working towards reelection, or compromise with other ruling parties."

He sat back. "Of course, hereditary monarchy can never hold out forever," he said. "Inevitably the world lapses back into a state of flux. In the long run, democracy works out a little better for us: we can depose terrible leaders without bloody wars, meaning that the system might have a better chance of surviving."

"I think," she said, somewhat hesitantly because the entire idea of a hereditary monarchy was new to her, "that I oppose it. Mostly because if the same people always rule then the rest of the people get so used to them ruling it would be easy for someone unscrupulous to use that to their advantage rather than everyone's and that could be very bad. Unless there were checks in place to catch such behavior before it led to ruin."

Sia had to ask. "How do you think someone unscrupulous would that to their advantage?" she wondered.

"If a ruler of, say, a peaceful nation has aspirations towards expanding their territory, they could be clever and tell the people that another ruler was the one making this necessary, perhaps?" Yeul was not the surest person ever about this. "Or if someone else had designs on ruling, if they could kill the ruler and take their place as the person they killed, people would trust them and be easily led in ways that were contrary to the good of all the people... right?"

"I suppose someone somewhere had tried such a thing," Sia admitted. "But I don't think it'd be worth it in the long run. The truth would come out fairly quickly, especially in the second case."

"It might depend on how often people see their ruler," she offered. "There was a situation a few hundred years ago where someone in charge wasn't who the people thought he was but no one knew about that for ages because appearances were rare and faith was absolute."

"No offense meant, but that seems quite stupid for a ruler to do," Sia replied. "Whether the person in charge means the best by their people or even if they're just power-hungry and want the attention, they should be seen by the public for many reasons. Including, apparently, this one."

"No offense taken," she said honestly. "It ended badly and could have gone far worse."

Yeul hesitated for a moment. "I think, at the beginning, the leader was seldom seen because they wished people to trust in the office and not the specific person."

"I've no problems with a hereditary monarchy," Ulrik said. "Though the idea is rapidly falling out of favour in my own world. My nation in particular- as well as the Holy Roman Empire- follow a slightly different system," he continued. "It's an elective monarchy- when the King dies or is somehow no longer fit to rule, an election is held amongst certain nobles. In practice, it is nearly always the eldest son who is elected to the throne, but if by some chance the heir-presumptive is completely unsuited for the position, then the prince-electors may choose someone else in the line of succession."

"That's similar to how it is in my world as well," Karla agreed. "We have a multi-tiered system of Queens, but the Queens in the higher positions are chosen by those below. The Territory Queen, for example, is chosen by the Province Queens out of all the Queens in the land. Often, she is related to the previous Territory Queen, because the Territory Queen is usually the most powerful and those things tend to run in families, but there's no guarantee that that will be so. And the Province Queens listen to their District and Village Queens, as well as their Court, before deciding who to name."

She sat back and made a face. "Not that this is a perfect system, of course. It's open for abuse, as all systems are."

"It depends on the monarchs," Bucky decided. "I approve of the Egyptian Pharaohs, for instance. They were pretty sweet. But the Commie English King George Taxation-Without-Reservation-aters all need to go back where they came from and take their stupid tea with them!"

Bucky had a... unique view of history.

Once we ping in!

Tyrion was interested in the discussion; monarchy was something he was too close to to analyze properly.

Ulrik was here, of course, and rather bemused by the subject, all things considered.

And we're out! Thanks to

atreideslioness for letting me hijack due to mutual wonky schedules.

Edited 2012-09-03 14:08 (UTC)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

A Tale of Two Lions, Monday, 9/3

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