fandomhigh | Introduction to Western Literature, Lesson Six

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Introduction to Western Literature, Lesson Six

Tuesday, November 29, 1:00PM FST

[Professor Chaucer appears to be a damn good mood today. He's sitting behind his desk with his feet up, writing in a leather bound journal, and has a welcoming grin for each student as they enter. Anyone who looks closely might also notice that he's wearing some sort of ring on one hand.]

[Lecture]Your assigned reading was Plato's The Symposium, which is a prime example of rhetorical debate: a contest in which each speech can be judged for its style and substance (and also viewed as a moral reflection of the person who delivers it), as well as an example of dialectic argument: a process of statement and counter-statement, thesis and antithesis, question and reply that leads by incremental stages to a better understanding of a particular issue and a closer approximation to the truth.

The subject of The Symposium is Love. Four viewpoints are presented: that of the characters Phaedrus (love enobles both lover and beloved) and Pausanias (there are at least two kinds or levels of love: sacred and profane), Eryximachus (true love is is a biochemical balance that yields peace of mind) and Aristophanes (love involves a primal urge for wholeness and self-completeness). In fact, The Symposium is probably the single most influential treatment of love in all of western literature. From neo-Platonism to medieval mysticism, from Augustine to Dante, from Ficino to Freud, its major insights (the identity of Beauty and Goodness; love as a set of progressive stages, successive rungs in a quest for personal immortality; love as a universal creative principle or sacred force) have shaped western ideas and attitudes at all levels of culture. Profane love is defined as the physical attraction one would feel for a lover. Sacred love is defined as a spiritual emotion, putting the beloved on a pedestal to be adored from afar.

[Discussion] Today we'll do something a little different. I want each of you to choose one of the following viewpoints, variations on the ideas Plato presents in The Symposium:

a) there are two levels of love, sacred and profane, and both are equally valid;
b) sacred love is worthier than profane love;
c) neither sacred nor profane love are valid ideas because love is a biochemical state that has no connection to any moral or spiritual state.

Once you've chosen your position, I want you to do two things. First, present a brief argument supporting your position. Second, listen to someone else's argument and then offer a refutation. If someone refutes your argument, feel free to continue the discussion -- see if you can win the person over to your side.

PLEASE: let's keep things civil, all right?

***Assignment for Next Week: Begin reading Bede's Life of Cuthbert.***

The following students have at least two unexcused absences. I will allow you to slide on one unexcused absence -- makeup work will have to be completed in order to get a grade for any other missed classes.

___lily_evans_: three absences

miss_thomasina: two absences

studentwillow: four absences

Some of you have already spoken to me about your makeup work. Once makeup work has been turned in, I'll remove you from the list. If you haven't been to see me about your absences, stop into my office hours or catch me after class.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ask questions about the reading or the lecture here.

Participate in the discussion here.

Okay... there are two levels of love, sacred and profane, and both are equally valid.

Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds Shakespeare is speaking of a love at it's most true in 116. Their relationship is based on trust and understanding. While most may see this is sacred love being worthier, profane love can be based on this... spark, that you can't explain. There's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive... pulling in the biology factors, the way a person looks, especially from a female point of view is related back to the idea of superior genetic features for reproduction.

But then you go back to sacred love... and the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Adoring from afar is not necessarily the healthiest form of love. But you can't have a relationship based soley on love of looks.

Paige takes a deep breath, she's not going to cry, she's just not!

"Sacred love is worthier than profane love because I think the profane is easier to ignore, you can feel attracted to someone for example, but choose not to acknowledge or act on those feelings or impulses. The sacred however is much harder to ignore because it involves deep seated emotions, that don't just go away when you want them too," she may look at Geoff for a fleeting moment when she says that, she may not "and because sacred love is on an emotional level rather than a physical one it's based on more than just attraction, it's more about truely knowing that person enough to have a connection with them."

She pauses "of course in an ideal world true love would be a mixture of the two, the sacred and profane."

"This ain't an ideal world, sweetheart. All humans are physically attracted to one another naturally, if not by looks than sound and smell." he rebukes her, knowing full well she doesn't want anything to do with him.

She just looks at him, he had to speak up didn't he?

"I think I know that now thanks she spits back at him

She turns away quickly, she's not going to cry, she just.not

He leans back in hiss seat, crossing his arms over his chest, "Then stop acting like it, princess." he snaps back. Ah, the qualms of love.

She takes a deep breath, and looks at him again, if Sawyer had any sense what so ever he'd know not to mess with her today.

"I assure you Sawyer I've known for a long time life isn't perfect, or are you forgetting what I am?"

"Yeah, a damn witch" he scowls, "And I'm a crook. Aren't we perfect for one another?" he glares at her, leaning into his desk now.

Paige stands up now, clearly he's even stupider than she thought, not she generally thought he was, just this last few hours really.

She gets very close it him. "You think all witches are evil James? Even after everything? You think because I'm 'not normal' I should accept everything?" she says quietly her eyes burning with the will power it was taking not to just cast a spell right there in the classroom.

He laughs briefly, "I think you're a huge bitch and you need to go sit back down before you do something you'll regret." he seethes up at her.

"Paige. Sawyer. That's enough. I asked everyone to keep things civil. You've had enough discussion, separate yourselves and settle down."

Chaucer's voice is calm but loud enough to be heard over the arguement.

She looks at him, wondering why she'd ever gone out with Sawyer in the first place when she clearly needed someone nice and decent like Geoff

"I'm sorry, this isn't about class work, I would have left it outside, but apparently someone couldn't!" she looks at Sawyer like she wants to punch him, "just keep him away from me, please!" she looks up at Geoff with sad eyes, wondering how she'd managed to get everything so messed up

"Oh please, get over yourself. Those little 'tempt-me-not' eyes ain't gonna get you no where sweetcheeks." he huffs under his breath, moving farther away from her in an empty seat on the other side of the room.

Argg.

She looks at him from the other side of the room, if she didn't have so much self control she's have cast a spell on him by now, but she did.

She looked down at her desk her eyes filling with tears, all she wanted to do was leave the room, go find alcohol and just drink until she couldn't remember him anymore, cos having this version of him in her head was killing her, she justed it back to normal, her and Sawyer against everything else.

She began to shake slightly as her tears fell silently

Geoff rubs his face as though he feels a headache coming on.

"The two of you are excused from the remainder of the class. Please go to the library or study hall, and write me a brief essay supporting the stance that the other took in this discussion. Turn it in to me tomorrow during my office hours. And remember that I did warn you to keep things civil."

She looks at him and wonders if he's really clueless to think this has anything to do with his class.

She just shakes her head and walks out, at least she can sob in peace now, and drink until she can't actually see

Love involves a primal urge for wholeness and self-completeness is how I'd explain it, I guess that would be letter C then, it's neither profane or sacred because it's a natural drive in men and women to love one another. Love is not the first on someone's mind though, it's Lust that controlls that and might evolve into love. All men have that primal urge to be loved and to love someone, it's just...natural.

Still jet-lagged, Sonia is far from a state of mind where she could really discuss this. She does listen with interest to the discussion between her other students, though.

Thomasina ponders the topic under discussion with amusement, thinks to argue for the third option, then stops, thinking it would not be proper to use her relations as examples in this discussion, then hits upon the idea of speaking on the subject of Cleopatra, I do not know what a biochemical state is, but if it has anything to do with developing urges to kiss or embrace or otherwise make love to another person, then I should think Cleopatra would be a good enough case on which to base an argument for that point of view. Poetry, after all, is not all psalms - and whilst lovers often praise the virtue of their loves, they are more likely to count lips or eyes or hair among them than chastity or prudence.

Chat with the professor or your friends here.

You know you want to. Make silly OOC comments here.

((OMG this lesson will actually break Paige today, if she starts silently weeping just ignore her okay?))

Sorry! This has totally been on my reading list since the beginning -- he's not trying to be mean. Paige can be excused from class if she needs to leave.

((Oh god yeah I knew that, Geoff would never be so cruel, she seems to have nack of getting into ZOMG emo/amgst just before every lesson! She'll stay, just keep her away for Sawyer or he might get turned into a pig! I really like todays lessons just, very bad timing for P, but she'll cope))

OMGZ. I'm so mean.wtf. Oh well, this will be fun to see unfold *eyes Paige and Sawyer and their WANGST love*

She's one step away from running out! And she wants to rebuke you (is that a authemism? maybe!) but she just can't OMG their love is so FFS!

Can Geoff drop a note to the new Psych teacher about Paige being this class please? Since it clashes and she wants proof.

Sawyer'll need one too

Sure -- do you mean that the class clashes with the Psych class, or that Paige and Sawyer clash with each other? *g*

lol well given she's one comment away from punching the guy both! I can almost feel her dentention already!

I'll speak with the Psych teacher about Paige and Sawyer's enrollment here -- are you being required to take her class or something?

I can't find the add/drop course post to whether or not I dropped it or not (I removed it from his User Info though) but, yeah, she's making us actually do all the make-up homework, which is insanity.

*FLAILS*

We were taking when Dru was teaching then it didn't have s et time cos well it was Dru! But yeah it does now so it's only just become an issue

Please forgive T for her absolute not showing up or participating enough. That's all me as a bad mun. I do mean to actually have that conversation about make-up work and topic for her final project with you at some point. If you didn't mind playing it out late I'd be absolutely grateful, but if that can't work, I'll just take my lumps and live with it. Ta.

I'm willing to be flexible and give everyone time to work out the make-up work thing. If you can send Thomasina by my office hours on Wednesday (which I'll be available for in the evening EST and can slow-play), we could play out the discussion for both. I'll have office hours Tuesday and Wednesday next week as well.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Introduction to Western Literature, Lesson Six

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