fandomhigh | Newspaper Crew Meeting: 16:00 FHS-20:00 FHS

Parker checks her notes on that. "Actually no, that's just killing someone. I'd think you'd *know* that. 'In law, murder is the crime of a human being causing the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill or with an intent to cause grievous bodily harm.'

And then the excuses are explained: killing a person who poses an immediate threat to the lives of oneself or others, killing a non-surrendered enemy combatant in time of war, executing a person in accordance with a legally imposed sentence of death. Morally, you could argue any of those, but legally, they're all allowed. If they stick with the moral definition, we can get them on those technicalities, as well as abortion and euthanasia, which are still up for legal debate."

"Are we sure the other side is going to stick to that definition, though?" Angelus asked. "I'm fine for it if you are. Just pointing out some courts get very tetchy on how they define things like self-defense.

"Still, plenty to work with if we do," Angelus sipped from his cup of coffee. "For instance, we could argue that it's okay to kill a child molester based on how many we know he's going to hurt. And many societies do much the same thing with criminals, only they call it the death penalty."

Phoebe showed up, looking a little pale, but her eyes are full of determination. She took a seat near her partners and took out her notebook. She got up to get a coffee and sits back down.

"Don't forget rapists," she muttered.

"Hey, Pheebs," Angelus moved the tray of four coffee cups he'd been hoarding in her direction. "Didn't know what you liked so that's regular, that's decaf, that's cappucino, and that's a mocha."

Phoebe looks at Angelus. "You are my new best friend," she said with a large smile as she grabbed the mocha. She savors it for a moment and then looks at him and Parker. "So, what have I missed?"

"We've been trying to figure out if we want to argue on moral or legal grounds. Or both." Angelus pushed the tray over to Parker if she wanted to help herself to the other three coffees. "The catch is guessing what the other side is going to go with."

Phoebe thought about this for a moment. "Who's on the other side and are we for or against?"

"Beka, John, and Cam," Angelus said. "They're arguing against murder, we're arguing for it. Or, to use the teacher's words, we're arguing that It is not the case that murder is never acceptable, regardless of circumstance."

Parker thinks, not liking that he has a point. "So, we define it as we see it; defense of self and others, in an immediate situation, is not a sufficient scope. If it worked for Battered Wife Defenses, it could work here."

"The legal definition and the moral differentiate between what the state does and what the individual does. No way they'll lay down and take that," Parker objected. "No, the self-defense and other-defense question is better." She frowns. "The trick is the question of 'justifiable' and 'any circumstances.' Where are the circumstances where a legal trial or the police can't operate, but an individual can?"

"Things the police has no scope over, for a start," Angelus said. "Not many cops going to help out with a Howler demon problem."

"Do I *want* to know?" Parker wonders aloud. "I'm assuming they're a threat even if they haven't directly done anything to someone when they become evident in a community. Yes?"

"And it's a good example if that's true, because it points out that the police and legal system are not perfect. Individual responsibility comes into play." Parker takes a deep breath. "For instance, when you were with the Scourge of Europe. I'm guessing *someone* should've staked your ass when they had the chance."

Angelus frowned. The expression was not unlike someone who's listening to a non-native English speaker get an idiom wrong. "When I what now?"

"The Scourge of Europe. You, Darla, William the Bloody, some other chick? Ring any bells?" Parker canted her head to the side. "Would you say that the citizens of Europe had a pre-emptive need to kill you, that wouldn't be classified as murder? Hypothetically speaking, of course."

"Where are you getting this other vampire from?" Angelus asked, clearly not parsing Parker's grammar in the way she intended it. "Who's claiming they were the Scourge of Europe?"

[ooc: brb]

Parker looks at him like he's on something. "You, dumbass. You were part of a group called the 'Scourge of Europe.' And don't tell me you never bothered to read any history books about yourself, I won't believe it. And you still haven't answered the question. Although if you manage to stall our opponents on Friday like this, I won't complain then."

"What?" Angelus looked as though he was caught between surprise and a laugh. "Parker, there was no group called the Scourge. I was the Scourge. Christ, how bad do the Watchers fuck up those diaries anyway? But yeah, somebody wanted to kill me they'd be well within their rights. Hell, I'd have respected 'em for it. Did, in fact."

Parker just stared at him.

"I do not get you at all. But then, I don't have to... moving on. That answers our point. Those whom the proper authorities can not handle, have to be left to individual conscience." Parker shifts uncomfortably, chilled. "The classic 'would you kill Hitler?' defense would work except it's a cliche'. We'll find better examples and use those. Okay?"

"How about a battered wife?" Angelus suggested. "It's been proven that not only do cops fail to protect them on any kind of level, but that seeking out restraining orders and the like increases the odds that the husband will kill her. Don't tell me that's not a good time to make Smith & Wesson your dearest friends."

"Yes, that'll work." Parker shivers momentarily, not sure why, then goes on. "Stalkers, too. We don't have to prove that everyone has this right, just that there *are* circumstances under which it is justified." She makes a few notes. "I think Phoebe should go first. I'll shoot her an email about this, if she doesn't have time to join us in a planning session."

"So Phoebe, then you, then me?" Angelus asked.

"Unless you can think of a reason not to?" Parker asks.

"I've got no objections," Angelus said. "Phoebe's supposed to stop by at some point. I can give her my notes, help her catch up."

[ooc: or we could jump to the thread with her in it. up to you]

Parker looks vaguely irritable, and gathers her things. "That'll be fine. Email me if we need to meet about anything else tomorrow." She glares at him. "I want to win this, you know. No matter *whose* team I'm on."

_{[ooc: Getting late, and I'm crashing early, sadly.]}

"You doubt I could do well with this argument?" Angelus looked thoughtful. "I can't tell if that's a compliment or an insult. Don't worry, Park. If nothing else I'll be sure to tell the teach you did the work."

[ooc: Ditto on all counts]

"I'm certain you have the brains for it. I'm not certain you have the perspective to anticipate the opposition, due to lack of context-- you know, respect for life?" Parker shrugs. "But it's too late to do anything about it. And damn right you will." She flips on her shades, and smirks. "Later, 'Scourge.' Were you in a hairband too?"

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