Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #2, Jan 12]

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"Welcome back," Alex said, nodding at her students. "Since last week went so well, I thought it best if we dive right in. So this week we're going to be discussing capital punishment. Capital, in this case, refers to the head. As in, your head, and the State's ability to separate it from your body. We're talking about the death penalty: a government executing its own citizens."

They could have started with something more dry and theoretical, but Alex was more a fan of practical applications of the law. And nothing stirred discussion like the death penalty.

"Most countries have a history of some kind with the death penalty. It's a quick way for the government to silence dissent, and to deal with those citizens that the rest of society has deemed unfit. It's fallen out of favor in most countries in this world, but there are those which still practice it. Including the United States, the country that Fandom is adjacent to."

She was still a touch unclear on whether the US had any jurisdiction over Fandom. She would imagine not so much, all things considered.

"Proponents of the death penalty will say that it functions as a deterrent. If Joe Citizen knows that murdering his neighbors could end in his death, maybe he'll think twice and put down that hacksaw. Advocates also say that it provides an appropriate punishment to the crime. It fills a psychological need for retribution, and it gives the victims' families closure. It guarantees that that criminal will never re-offend. And as a prosecutor, I will add that it gives me a certain amount of leverage in dealing with a suspect. Many criminals are willing to confess or hand over important information if I take the death penalty out of consideration. They'll still be in jail for the rest of their lives."

She lifted her shoulders. "That's one side of the issue. People on the other side say that the death penalty is barbaric, and that a government shouldn't be involved in revenge killings. Critics say that it's not effective as a deterrent, and that life imprisonment fulfills all the necessary conditions of punishment. Those against it will also note that it's rarely implemented in a fair manner: in most countries, the poor, the ethnic minorities, and the underclass will make up a majority of those put to death. And this is before we get to the much thornier issue of what happens when an innocent person is wrongly convicted. A life sentence can be commuted; if the prisoner's already dead, then the government has innocent blood on its hands."

"So let's talk about capital punishment. Whether the government has the right to take a life, and what that means for a free society." As an afterthought, she pulled out her class roster and squinted at it. "And ... Karla and ... Kurt? Congratulations, you're going to be my teaching assistants. If you strongly object to the idea, see me after class to lodge a complaint."

Comments

Sign In - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Like you have a bad headache. (This has nothing to do with class and everything to do with my day.)

Re: Sign In - JST02

[likes_scoundrels]

Leia Organa

During the Lecture - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Pass notes, chat, wonder about the fairness of the death penalty, marvel at Alex's ability to jump right to controversial subjects, you know, the usual.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[likes_scoundrels]

Leia was there, taking notes but pokeable.

Not dirty.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

Joan jotted down some notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[therewaslife]

Once the lecture had started, Bod decided notes weren't really needed. This seemed like one of the most subjective, controversial topics around and taking notes seemed to be less important than deciding his stance.

He looked more thoughtful than anything, taking in Professor Cabot's words and considering how he felt about a subject he hadn't considered before.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

Aravis wasn't taking notes, exactly, but she was watching Alex and attempting to commit everything to memory.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[glacial_queen]

Karla wasn't taking notes on what Alex said, but interesting points her classmates argued. Just because she knew Kaeleer's stance on the matter didn't mean that all other thoughts on the topic were invalid.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[exspeedydotcom]

Roy took notes, but it wasn't really one of his skills so he feared they wouldn't make a lot of sense when he read over them later.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[rocksthescarf.livejournal.com]

Chuck spent the class drawing things in a notebook. Please, as if he'd take notes.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[bamf-tastic.livejournal.com]

Kurt stared at his paper. He didn't really take good notes today, because he was too busy trying to figure out what he thought about the matter. It was more complicated than it seemed.

Re: During the Lecture - JST02

[heromaniac]

Momoko was marveling at the Professor's ability and willingness to jump right into stuff like that! Not that Momoko didn't already have a stance on killing people, but wow!

Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

Does the government have the right to kill its own citizens? What failsafes could be implemented to improve the process? Are some crimes heinous enough that life imprisonment won't suffice? How can the government ensure that innocent citizens won't be put to death?

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"I have mixed feelings about it," Joan admitted. "But incarceration is supposed to rehabilitate criminals and if they are repeat offenders, they obviously aren't being rehabilitated, so the threat of the death penalty makes sense."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[likes_scoundrels]

"The government doesn't have the right to kill its citizens, no matter how vile they may be," Leia said. "It makes them just as much a murderer as the person they've convicted."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[bitten_notshy]

"I think it's absolutely within the government's rights," Jack began easily. He had some vague inkling the death penalty was controversial in this time, but largely thought modern people were so soft-hearted about it that they'd become soft-headed. His time was only a few years past public executions.

"Saying 'trials should be fair' is vague as a solution, but it's the only one I have," he continued thoughtfully. "It's important people aren't put to death simply because they belong to a minority group or the government dislikes them."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[therewaslife]

"It seems hard to classify the death penalty as a deterrent in connection with some of the other statements you made," said Bod, turning that particular statement over in his head. "For one, the criminal justice system here doesn't seem to be completely uniform. If I killed someone, I might get the death penalty but who's to say that someone of a higher status will get the same? If they know that, they could still go and kill someone and not be deterred by the threat of their own death."

Bod stopped and bit his lower lip. It hadn't been the question she'd asked but he hadn't really gotten it out of his head. "Still, I do believe the government has the right, at least, to impose the death penalty. If I can kill someone, why can't they?"

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[once-a-traitor.livejournal.com]

"Banishment suffices in some cases, as does imprisonment," Edmund said with a small frown of concentration. "But there are those who both deserve capital punishment due to their crimes and are too dangerous to allow to live. Those who have done no wrong must come first."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[blondecanary.livejournal.com]

"I think that the lack of equal application of the death penalty means it shouldn't be applied," Dinah said slowly, "in most cases. On the other hand, I know that it used to be automatic for killing a police officer in my state. To deter people from thinking that's a way to handle disagreements with the law: kill the people enforcing it. It's like assassinations, and political killings. Crimes meant to do more than just kill one person, effecting the lives of hundreds of people. And I do think that that kind of action deserves more than life in prison. But it's more that ..." She frowned, then said. "It's there for a greater purpose than revenge. You're trying to prevent a pattern from re-occurring. I don't know that it always works, though."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[noearsyet.livejournal.com]

George shrugged. "Why not? If someone's makin' crime his life, he knows what happens if he's stupid enough t'get caught. I'd rather be put t'death than forced to work in a slave camp all me life."

Re: Discussion: Capital Punishment - JST02

[notqueenyet.livejournal.com]

"I think, first and foremost, the method of execution and the executioner must both be considered," Aravis said. "Even in theory, their relationship must be clinical, and the method lacking in cruelty. If those two things are untrue -- if the executioner is working in vengeance, or the method more murderous than a public safety measure, then no, it shouldn't even be a consideration."

Discussion: Which Crimes - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

"There are a number of crimes that the government might consider capital offenses," Alex said. "Murder's a frequent one, especially if it's premeditated. In some countries, sexual violence like rape or assault could be eligible; in others, promiscuity or infidelity would qualify. Treason is another repeat offender: if you stand against the government, the government has little problem striking you down. Drug trafficking can be included. In the state of New York, murder which interferes with the justice system -- that is, the murder of a police officer in the line of duty, or a prosecutor or judge related to a specific case, or the murder of a witness who would testify against the defendant -- will do it."

Like, say, gunning down an ADA in a drive-by if she goes after a drug kingpin. Except for the part where she'd lived.

"What crimes do you think merit the death penalty? What ones absolutely shouldn't?"

Re: Discussion: Which Crimes - JST02

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

"I definitely agree with the idea of killing a police officer in the line of duty being a capital offense," Joan said.

She might be a little biased there.

Talk to the TAs - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

They're as surprised as you are!

Re: Talk to the TAs - JST02

[glacial_queen]

Karla looked surprised and pleased to be named a TA. She was there, string of blue beads wrapped around her wrist, ready to talk to people.

Talk to Alex - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

She's around.

OOC - JST02

[glasses-justice.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I mentioned it last week, but Alex is a big fan of playing devil's advocate in order to force students to back up their points. So she might argue for or against plenty of things that she doesn't necessarily believe. It's a lawyer thing.

Word of warning: I am probably going to be sloooooow today. See: sign-in thread. I'm feeling better now, yay meds, but I get so fucking sleepy after a migraine clears up. WTF?

Re: OOC - JST02

[joan-notjane.livejournal.com]

It's probably prudent for me to point out that Joan's dad is a cop and nearly died in the line duty, but for the grace of God (literally). This is an emotional and personal issue for her.