fandomhigh | Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #12, Mar 30]

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Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #12, Mar 30]

If I asked each of you to tell me what rights free, law-abiding citizens should have," Alex began, "I imagine the list would be considerable. Privacy, for one. The right to walk down the street unassailed, the right to go about your daily business without undue interference. If I asked you, instead, for what rights criminals should have, while under investigation for crimes, the list would presumably be much shorter. The problem here is that an accused criminal is a free, law-abiding citizen until we prove that he isn't. Whatever rules apply to one, apply to all. We can't waive those laws because we believe someone to be guilty, or we'll do the same when we're confronted with an innocent person who is the victim of unfortunate circumstances.

"Here's an example. Let's say a police officer pulls over a driver for a routine traffic stop. The driver isn't violating any traffic laws, but the officer feels the driver is acting erratically, and wants to search the car. Can he? In most free societies, the cops do not have the right to search citizens sheerly based on whim. If a society did allow that, there would be nothing to stop a police officer with entirely too much free time from conducting nightly raids on any house he likes, and arresting the owners if he can find anything illegal. If that goes against your notion of fairness, then your society shouldn't allow the cop to open the trunk of the suspect's car. And should rule that if he does open that trunk, whatever he finds is inadmissible in a court of law. No matter if it's a pound of street drugs or a dead body.

"You could, when writing those rules, allow for strong exceptions. One being probable cause: if the driver is covered in blood and has a weapon on the passenger seat, a reasonable person would assume a crime has taken place, and the officer would be free to search. Another common exception is exigent circumstances. Leaving our roadside example for a moment: if a cop hears shots fired inside a house, there is an underlying assumption that someone has been fired upon, which means acting immediately could save a life.

"Let's try another situation. Your society believes that it is wrong for any government to lock up a person in secret, while committing no real offense, and leave that person in a basement dungeon awaiting a 'trial' that will never come. So your society sets rules that says all suspects must be publicly charged, have public trials, and those trials must take place in a reasonable time period after the arrest. What happens when your police officers are confronted with a subject that they believe to be guilty -- in the absence of compelling proof -- and that subject is attempting to leave your country? Can the cops arrest and detain him long enough to investigate the charges? If a town undergoes a serious crime wave, and the courts are flooded with cases, what happens when the judicial system can't try all of those defendants within that reasonable time period?"

Alex lifted her shoulders. "In my former job as a prosecutor, I dealt closely with cops. Many of them aren't fond of lawyers: they think we needlessly complicate everything. They believe we stand for the rights of the criminal. In my view, I stand for the rights of all citizens -- but the acid test of those rights will generally involve a criminal, trying to escape justice for his crimes. Like everything else we've talked about this term, it's a balancing act. Where should we draw those lines?"

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With an icon you wish you had more of an excuse to use IC.

Talk, take notes, pass notes, the usual.

What rights and civil liberties should an average law-abiding citizen have? What about an accused criminal? What about a convicted criminal who has served his time and been released from prison? If an accused criminal has his rights violated, how should the court address the situation? Throw out the case? Rule out the evidence? Censure those responsible?

Should the cop have the right to search the trunk? What conditions might change your answer? Can the police do a nightly search on houses in a suspicious neighborhood? If the police are searching a house for evidence of weapons used in a crime, and find illegal drugs, can the suspect be charged with that new offense instead? What do you do when faced with the accused suspect fleeing the country?

If they're here.

She's here. And relieved that that fog cleared up.

I have nothing useful to say here, so please have not!Alex flashing people instead.

Gunn - Who is still a jaguar but I love this icon.

Gunn laid down on the floor but kept a watchful eye on Alex while his tail involuntarily swished slowly back and forth.

Either he was really enjoying the class or he just really enjoyed having a tail. One could not be sure.

Jack Priest

Chuck Bass

Nobody Owens

Tahiri Veila

Karla

Karla was there, taking notes and chewing on the end of her pencil as she thought.

Andrew Wiggin

Kurt Wagner

Kurt was nodding in agreement as he took detailed notes.

"Convicted criminals who've served their time should get all their rights back, shouldn't they?" Kurt asked. "If they don't, then they're still being punished. And accused criminals... um. They don't get the right to run away and disappear before the trial, but they're still innocent until proven guilty, ja?"

"The cop shouldn't even be allowed to PULL THE CAR OVER without a good reason," Kurt insisted. "And 'suspicious' isn't a good reason. I like your answers -- probable cause and exi-- eggsi-- circumstances. Those are good."

He thought some more. "But... a suspect shouldn't be allowed to leave the country. Because if they're guilty they could go somewhere with different laws and then not have to come back."

Sam Winchester

Roy Harper

Ben Skywalker

George Cooper

Gwen Cooper

Hyuuga Hinata

Aravis

Joan Girardi

Joan was listening to Alex's lecture and even taking notes, but she kept sneaking glances at the big freaking cat and wondering which of her classmates it was.

"Not necessarily," Joan said. "Someone who got drunk, smashed into a minivan and killed a family of four doesn't deserve the right to drive after they serve time for vehicular manslaughter."

Edmund Pevensie

Jennifer Walters

"Well, that's not exactly a right," Jennifer said. "I don't remember the part of the constitution that gives people the right to an internal combustion engine vehicle. Meaning I agree with you both, actually."

Momoko Akatsutsumi

Dinah Lance

Momoko was taking notes. Or trying to. She was kind of distracted by the jaguar. Which would explain why her notes looked like something like this:

"criminals have rights" [cartoon of a jaguar] "searching with no reason" [jaguar wearing a pink bow around it's neck] "Probable cause" [jaguar with frilly lace bowtie and cuffs attacking Godzilla] "all criminals should be publicly charged. ALWAYS BE FAIR!!"

"Driving is a privilege, not a right," Kurt agreed. He said it as if he'd heard it numerous times. "Without a license, you can't drive. Unless you're Bobby."

"How do we detain them if we don't have enough to bring a formal indictment?" Alex asked, leaning back against her desk. "And should a convicted felon have the right to own semi-assault weapons? If he's a convicted pedophile, should he have the right to sit outside elementary schools in a parked van?"

"To a country that doesn't extradite," Alex nodded. "So what's our legal reasoning from stopping him from getting on the plane? We can't ask every international traveler to stop first and check to be sure the local DA isn't looking at them for a crime."

Kurt thought about those questions. And thought some more. "There's no good way to answer any of that," he grumbled. "Because it's wrong either way."

"No, we can't," Kurt agreed. "So... I don't know? We ALSO can't follow everyone who's a suspect just in case they leave. Or put them all in prison. I'm not sure what we CAN do."

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Concepts of Justice and The Law [Period 4, Class #12, Mar 30]

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Discussion - Civil Liberties - JST12

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